Castable - How thin can you go?

[mikku]

Re: Castable - How thin can you go?

In the first place, pizza is not a food you make at a picnic or tailgate. Dough, cheese, assorted ingredients that need to be kept at controlled temps, plus the variety of implements (peel, cutter, make table at the minimum) make it impractical. Save the pizza for home and cook appropriate foods for the activity.

Hello Tscarborough!
I guess I'm just a trouble maker, I suppose then that some of the "meals on wheels" pizza ovens should be left at home? That is 100% sarcasm!

At the risk of being "tarred and feathered" and "run out of town on a rail", you could always use distant cousin to home made called "Frozen in the box Pizza"!
Wow!

My foolish "for examples" are drawing us away from the topic of how thin we can go? I have to check out the green egg thing. But if it is too heavy to move, then that eliminates it as well--Just have to go for something smaller --it is amazing what different people cook in WFO's

[mikku]

Re: Castable - How thin can you go?

What I really like about this forum are the people with "active imaginations" and their ability to think outside of the box!

[stonecutter]

Re: Castable - How thin can you go?

Here you go

Big Green Egg - The Ultimate Cooking Experience

Way too heavy to cart around though.

[Tscarborough]

Re: Castable - How thin can you go?

An oven on a trailer is a small (but expensive) portion of the gear needed to produce pizza, and I can promise you no one is dragging one to the beach to cook a couple of pizzas, and it is not because of the oven.

When I camp, I cook extravagantly, but pizza is not something I would even consider. Thinking outside the box is making scrambled eggs in a ziplock bag in a pot of boiling water, building an inground rock oven to cook a chunk of dead pig, or oysters casino 15 minutes fresh from the water.

[mikku]

Re: Castable - How thin can you go?

An oven on a trailer is a small (but expensive) portion of the gear needed to produce pizza, and I can promise you no one is dragging one to the beach to cook a couple of pizzas, and it is not because of the oven.

When I camp, I cook extravagantly, but pizza is not something I would even consider. Thinking outside the box is making scrambled eggs in a ziplock bag in a pot of boiling water, building an inground rock oven to cook a chunk of dead pig, or oysters casino 15 minutes fresh from the water.

I'm pulverizing some stone now, and hearing dings being produced by computer as the morning mail comes in.

I am a very simple person "the statement about thinking outside the box" was not intended as a criticizm, simply a few words of "joy" because so many people who frequent this forum have ideas that are sometimes different from the "norm". All the things --as far as cooking or baking tips, I would really like to hear more about!

Being in a foreign land, I have little opportunity to speak with people in English to express ideas. Most of the time, I have to try to explain the benefits of using imported North American products in the construction of " 2x4 Imported homes- I'm not a salesman but have been building for over 40 years. Now trying to do in in another language and teaching Japanese tradesmen how to install the products properly. It's a challenge-and I loose my English communicating abilities.

Funny thing--brick is rarely used here, it doesn't even have a "fire rating" for use as an exterior surface. If you want to add it in a wall assembly, by building code, you first have to use a rated siding--then apply the brick! Crazy right!
Further, rebar has to be run through the holes of the brick as you build! Also brick ties must be used to tie it back to the structure!

Brickie of Oz would be swearing up a storm and throwing mortar in all directions--trying to set a brick without tapping it! There is practically "zero production" if a brickie wants to lay brick here!

The alternative used here is "tile" - glued to the surface. Or if you want the real appearance of brick---they have tracks that are attached to the walls then the thin "special brick" is slid into the tracks. After mortar joints are produced by bagging the grout in!

[stonecutter]

Re: Castable - How thin can you go?

When I camp, I cook extravagantly, but pizza is not something I would even consider. Thinking outside the box is making scrambled eggs in a ziplock bag in a pot of boiling water, building an inground rock oven to cook a chunk of dead pig, or oysters casino 15 minutes fresh from the water.

You would have fit right in on our back country canoe camping trips. Shrimp scampi, homemade ragu and wild caught brook trout, poached in white wine, butter and lemon over the fire. That's our 'camp' food.

[Tscarborough]

Re: Castable - How thin can you go?

If you were going to make a small lightweight pizza oven, it would be cast upside down, hardcoat first, then insulation, then a shell of refractoy. It would need to be cast monothically, so that the insulation and hard coat would serve as a monocoque structure. Say, 3/8" hard coat, 3" insulation, 1" refractory thermal mass, and set on an insulated base with a similar refractory.

Hard coat: GFRC
Insulation: 8/1 perclcrete
Refractory: Castable with 1/2"-3/4" SS fibers.

[Laurentius]

Re: Castable - How thin can you go?

Hi Mikku,

There's a major reason that brick usage as a building material is not used or encouraged, earthquakes! Many of the port towns that had brick structures were destroyed and many lives lost. Most death occurred from fire, than fallen debris in Japan, before it was opened to Europeans.

[david s]

Re: Castable - How thin can you go?

If you were going to make a small lightweight pizza oven, it would be cast upside down, hardcoat first, then insulation, then a shell of refractoy. It would need to be cast monothically, so that the insulation and hard coat would serve as a monocoque structure. Say, 3/8" hard coat, 3" insulation, 1" refractory thermal mass, and set on an insulated base with a similar refractory.

Hard coat: GFRC
Insulation: 8/1 perclcrete
Refractory: Castable with 1/2"-3/4" SS fibers.

That is almost exactly what I did for my mobile oven although I did not build it upside down and at that stage I was not adding ss fibres to the castable. My inner refractory is 1 3/4" thick and the outer shell although only 3/8" thick contains both fibres and chicken wire. All up it weighs around 170Kgs , not including the trolley. It is quite easy to roll on and off the trailer for one person. Internally the floor space is approx the same as a domestic oven (int. diam 540 mm or 21" The reinforced Hebel (AAC) supporting slab serves as insulation and supporting slab.
Note the vertical crack at the back of the one piece cast. This is typical of one piece cast domes.

[mikku]

Re: Castable - How thin can you go?

You would have fit right in on our back country canoe camping trips. Shrimp scampi, homemade ragu and wild caught brook trout, poached in white wine, butter and lemon over the fire. That's our 'camp' food.

That sounds great!
Even though I lived very near Minnesota BWCA, never canoe'd in. Did go on some Salmon fishing trips near Washington Island- Michigan... But the guys I went with thought "fresh donuts" and coffee was fishing food. I ended up cooking for a bunch of guys--but stew was the best I could come up with--no planned ahead provisions! Way too expensive hobby--the key players had sponsors because they were filming an outdoor sports segment for TV.

[brickie in oz]

Re: Castable - How thin can you go?

add some "mass" readily available--i.e. beach sand, .

Its funny stuff this sand, last week it was an insulator now its thermal mass.

[mikku]

Re: Castable - How thin can you go?

You need to buy or replicate one of these.
Presto Series Ovens | Wood Fired Oven

Or, Make a steel box, line it with fire brick splits and keep the fire going all the time.

Or. there was a bloke who lined a weber with refractory
Or there is the "Big Green Egg" thing. I've never seen one of those, I guess you must be able to move them?

Wotavidone-
Really looks like it fits the description, 315# is pretty light compared to normal builds. Probably still a little heavy for a mom and pop move alone--But really looks like a winner. Someone put a lot of thought into it--No extra bells and whistles, clean design. I'd like to try making one on my own, but for those with no time or space to construct one--definitely a good choice!

[mikku]

Re: Castable - How thin can you go?

Hi Mikku,

There's a major reason that brick usage as a building material is not used or encouraged, earthquakes! Many of the port towns that had brick structures were destroyed and many lives lost. Most death occurred from fire, than fallen debris in Japan, before it was opened to Europeans.

Your wrong there, it is used! But there are restrictions on how it is used and how it is installed. Like I said, a foreign bricklayer, would go nuts with following the rules --if speed were the only consideration!

The paradox is no special rules existed concerning the use of "kawara" until after the earthquake in 2011. "Kawara" for others in the English speaking world is the term used for clay tile roofs.

The kawara adds a lot of weight to the entire roof structure, thus larger support timbers are normally required. The tiles are usually lipped over roof strips as they are laid up and the tiles are nailed on alternate courses, sometimes every third course. Then, the munae must be installed at the peak of the structure to make the roof water repellant. This feature is used by the tradesman as a way to express a trademark, also used by the homeowner as a symbol of wealth! The bigger the munae, or higher in courses the munae--the wealthier the customer.

Same as some people who want 4WD extended cab, dually trucks with raised suspension, big fat tires, brush guards, big lights attached to the roof... and the rest of the decorative crap to show off their inflated egos! Maybe you can imagine the type. Really funny when there is no snow, or dunes--or beaches to drive on where they possibly would be useful!

Anyway, these top heavy roofs really do not stand up to all the motions caused by earthquakes. The munae (ridge tile) crack loose, fall down and hit a tile close, breaks some and cascades pieces down the roof, causing damage to lower roofs, and sometimes hitting occupants fleeing to safety outdoors! I really think these roofs should be totally banned for residential construction. If they are required to maintain the character of historic buildings, they would be allowed but with restrictions attached.

I advocate platform framing construction, maintenance free exteriors, light weight roofs, lots of insulation and simple designs. Roof material of choice if the budget allows--colored stainless steel roofing. Next best and possibly cheapest, fiberglas reinforced-laminated asphalt shingles. If you don't know by now, normal Japanese roofs are called "Colonial" an asbestos like material that requires painting after about 10 years, if left unattended--at 15 it starts to fall apart. Usually it can be painted once--then it should be replaced. So on a 17 year cycle you have to replace your roof. Similar with galvalume roofs- same painting schedule, (scaffolding costs around $2500 normally and clean and paint job around $20/m3. But very few people consider it when they are building new!

Anyway, Laurentius--that is my view on bricks and other products used in Japan!

[mikku]

Re: Castable - How thin can you go?

If you were going to make a small lightweight pizza oven, it would be cast upside down, hardcoat first, then insulation, then a shell of refractoy. It would need to be cast monothically, so that the insulation and hard coat would serve as a monocoque structure. Say, 3/8" hard coat, 3" insulation, 1" refractory thermal mass, and set on an insulated base with a similar refractory.

Hard coat: GFRC
Insulation: 8/1 perclcrete
Refractory: Castable with 1/2"-3/4" SS fibers.

Hello Tcarborough,
Those were some of my thoughts in post #4.
The order is different, I mentioned loose fill because I wanted to leave the option of adding additional thermal mass for the non-pizza enthusiasts!

Thought the loose fill would allow for the dome to move completely independant of the hard coat/perclcrete. Your design would use both the hard coat and insulation as support for the dome. The only nagging question--is there enough mass then with 1"?

[mikku]

Re: Castable - How thin can you go?

That is almost exactly what I did for my mobile oven although I did not build it upside down and at that stage I was not adding ss fibres to the castable. My inner refractory is 1 3/4" thick and the outer shell although only 3/8" thick contains both fibres and chicken wire. All up it weighs around 170Kgs , not including the trolley. It is quite easy to roll on and off the trailer for one person. Internally the floor space is approx the same as a domestic oven (int. diam 540 mm or 21" The reinforced Hebel (AAC) supporting slab serves as insulation and supporting slab.
Note the vertical crack at the back of the one piece cast. This is typical of one piece cast domes.

Great looking build! Simple and functional! You even figured out a way to put it on and take it off a vehicle for transportation!
Next question--can you go thinner?
If you were going to do "this style again" what would you change?