Home brew concrete and cast-in-place concrete.

[mikku]

Re: Home brew concrete and cast-in-place concrete.

[QUOTE=stonecutter;146540]Bummer about the slabs...I think you should have said they came from the lobby or something.

You might be able to get away with that...but I get the 4th degree...on anything I haul home.

I am a crummy lier too, that's why no card games either.

If she were rolling out pie crust on one of the "perfect sized pieces" that had been mounted near the urinals! --Then she ask...Where did this nice stone come from??? I'd spill the beans! Me, stone, piecrust would all fly out the door, and wouldn't have baked goods for a verrrrry loooooooong time!

Very tough cookie for someone tipping just over 100 pounds!

[mikku]

Re: Home brew concrete and cast-in-place concrete.

Bummer about the slabs...I think you should have said they came from the lobby or something.

Wires were involved...ah ha. Mechanical anchors there, so they don't have to rely on a mechanical bond with the setting material..acceptable practice, but blobs of mortar behind stone, mechanical bond or not, is still a sucky parctice in severe weather areas. Voids behind stone are a moisture collection area, leading to efflorescence, spalling...failure. But it sounds like it has held up ok there, so I guess that method is fine for that area.

Your posts are in need of some pictures...I would like to see the stone. Thinset for the arch...to adhere it to the vent or something? Thin-set should work great if the substrate is sound, and the stone doesn't exceed some kind of vertical weight limitation...which this light stone probably won't.

There are three pictures: First is how it looked the day before yesterday.
Second is after cleaning old mortar off/soaking and re-apply thinset.
Third is covered back up with plastic for a few days for slow dry.

Yesterday, I also put a skim coating of thinset to the exposed surface of pericrete surrounding oven opening and covered with plastic. My thoughts that the skim coat would give the pericrete a broader surface to bond --when I actually put stone arch in place (1 Piece).

Was thinking prior to attaching the arch, I would skimcoat the back of the stone as well.

Eventually, the only portion exposed of the arch would be the face. The render and stucco would wrap around the edge to anchor it permanently to the oven.

This stone will also serve as the recess for an outer "blast door" for fire up sequence.







The thinset that squeezed out of the joint, I troweled off, then rubbed stone dust into the surface. I do not know how permanent it will be but it does dry very similar to the color of the stone.

[stonecutter]

Re: Home brew concrete and cast-in-place concrete.

I take from your comment, you do not think much of "dongo balls" anywhere

Outside - Not for me, ever.

Inside - I see no problem horizontally...issues vertically without mechanical anchors.

[stonecutter]

Re: Home brew concrete and cast-in-place concrete.

The place I saw stone attached (with what?) I do not know, but resembled dongo balls was on granite wainscot and counter areas in an old bank that was being remodeled. There were also some wires involved. We were trying to salvage some of the stone pieces. The bank was built in the late 1800's and we were doing our salvage in late 1990's. Stone was stuck to brick walls that were plaster finished inside, I do not remember the way the counters were made. Lobby floors were those octogon white tile, some ceilings were tin stampings, lots of ornate oak woodwork for tellers cage trim, private offices etc.

The easy source for slab granite were the toilet partitions, but my wife would not allow me to salvage those..? Something with cleanliness issues??? I thought that bleach can clean any surface to a sanitary state!! But still a big "NO"!

I take from your comment, you do not think much of "dongo balls" anywhere?
I was planning to use the "thinset" to re-do the arch assembly. The stone has been soaking since yesterday... Actually in its natural state underground it is in the water table. Plan to mortar the joints and let them sit covered with plastic for a few days then uncovered until they dry out again.

Any comments?

Bummer about the slabs...I think you should have said they came from the lobby or something.

Wires were involved...ah ha. Mechanical anchors there, so they don't have to rely on a mechanical bond with the setting material..acceptable practice, but blobs of mortar behind stone, mechanical bond or not, is still a sucky parctice in severe weather areas. Voids behind stone are a moisture collection area, leading to efflorescence, spalling...failure. But it sounds like it has held up ok there, so I guess that method is fine for that area.

Your posts are in need of some pictures...I would like to see the stone. Thinset for the arch...to adhere it to the vent or something? Thin-set should work great if the substrate is sound, and the stone doesn't exceed some kind of vertical weight limitation...which this light stone probably won't.

[mikku]

Re: Home brew concrete and cast-in-place concrete.

The place I saw stone attached (with what?) I do not know, but resembled dongo balls was on granite wainscot and counter areas in an old bank that was being remodeled. There were also some wires involved. We were trying to salvage some of the stone pieces. The bank was built in the late 1800's and we were doing our salvage in late 1990's. Stone was stuck to brick walls that were plaster finished inside, I do not remember the way the counters were made. Lobby floors were those octogon white tile, some ceilings were tin stampings, lots of ornate oak woodwork for tellers cage trim, private offices etc.

The easy source for slab granite were the toilet partitions, but my wife would not allow me to salvage those..? Something with cleanliness issues??? I thought that bleach can clean any surface to a sanitary state!! But still a big "NO"!

I take from your comment, you do not think much of "dongo balls" anywhere?
I was planning to use the "thinset" to re-do the arch assembly. The stone has been soaking since yesterday... Actually in its natural state underground it is in the water table. Plan to mortar the joints and let them sit covered with plastic for a few days then uncovered until they dry out again.

Any comments?

[stonecutter]

Re: Home brew concrete and cast-in-place concrete.

I can imagine "dongo balls" working very well for setting slabs of granite on a vertical surface.. I have seen this when doing demolition in schools or banks that used granite.

No way, you have really seen this method with "dongo balls" applied in a vertical application with cementitious material? I have seen that done with epoxy but never, ever with anything else. I have set big slate and schist panels ( 3.5' x4.5'x 1.25") with a heavily modified mortar, which was applied much like thin-set. But blobs of mortar here and there? That would be considered a hack job, and it would never fly...at least no place I have ever worked. Additionally, it would never last anywhere there is a freeze thaw.

[mikku]

Re: Home brew concrete and cast-in-place concrete.

Hi Mikku,

I'm curious? Why didn't you try the technique that the owner prescribed first, since he was more familiar with Oya-stone than you?

I gather information and advice from many sources. In the end, I have to judge the course to take. In this instance, the owner gave me information that told me more of the character of the stone, but that I observed on my own. His experience is from "watching someone else" in a similar situation.

The advice I was following was from "Stonecutter". His advice is based on "experiencing doing"! I followed consistencies in both and ruled out "dongo balls" because I felt I would get better adhesion with a notched trowel.

I can imagine "dongo balls" working very well for setting slabs of granite on a vertical surface.. I have seen this when doing demolition in schools or banks that used granite. Also "dongo balls" would work for leveling stone that was not saw cut to the same thickness.

Does any of this make sense to you and satisfy your curiosity?

Thanks for your continued interest in this project.

BTW, this same owner--has his own mobil pizza oven that is KD. He has a metal stand that hold firebricks, slabs of oya stone to form shelves. It has two chambers, a lower for the fire--upper for pizza baking. No insulation, no chimney, no doors. He thinks that insulation is an "expensive option", that making the oven walls thick makes the entire oven "non-portable", and that everything I have done so far is "over spec".

He has strong opinions on how things should be done--same guy who told me repeatedly for several years--no "Lime" in Japan!

So I listen, then sort through what I've heard, and do what my gut says.

[Laurentius]

Re: Home brew concrete and cast-in-place concrete.

Hi Mikku,

I'm curious? Why didn't you try the technique that the owner prescribed first, since he was more familiar with Oya-stone than you?

[mikku]

Re: Home brew concrete and cast-in-place concrete.

Adventures in Paradise-
Finally was able to get a new bag of thinset, the owner of the masonry supply store was asking all kinds of questions on what I was doing.. I mentioned "Oya Stone" and he began to give me a bunch of warnings about the characteristics of the product.
1) Extremely soft and water absorbant
2) Has pockets of non-stone material
3) Surface is prone to have (fine dust layer)
4) Really dries fast--(a repeat of #1) with an explanation point!
5) Did not want me to purchase the large size notched trowel (maybe 3/8 notch)
6) He gave advice on setting
a) Use either of two things- a primer, or acrylic bonding agent on surface
b) skimcoat both surfaces--but soak the stone in water as long as possible
c) instead of notched trowel--use his "dongo method", make small meatball size balls of thinset and place them strategically under the stone--press and level into place. He claims that maybe 15 "dongo balls" under a 1x2 block will do the trick!

Today's attempt:
1) First painted water on stone and base--painting alone disappeared almost as quickly as the water was spread... Ended up setting the stone in buckets of water for a while. In the mean time, I mixed up some of the thinset to spec's.

2) Took the stone pieces out, and wiped the surface with a dry towel--surface water disappeared, but stone was probably saturated. This time, when doing a skim coat of thinset, it did not dry on contact.

3) Brushed water on the concrete base once and then skimcoated the base, following up with a setting layer using the notch trowel - 1/4"; went back to the stones and put a layer with notched trowel on them as well. The skimcoat was not dry and the thinset seemed to still adhere.

4) Set the stones in the bed of thinset on slab--tapped and wiggled the stone to where I thought each were in proper alignment- laid down a sheet of poly and a piece of plywood on top of that.

I hope that this time, the stone will adhere properly.?? This stone is really funny stuff, even sitting in a bucket of water with part exposed--I covered the exposed portion with a wet towel, when I removed the towel (though still wet), the stone beneath looked dry!

Back to the arch--tried lifting it up--after 4 days or so, the joint broke loose. The mortar must have dried so fast that no setting occurred at all. I scraped the mortar off with Olfa knife and started soaking the pieces. This time around, I hope the joints hold together!

"Another episode of "Amateur Hour"!

[stonecutter]

Re: Home brew concrete and cast-in-place concrete.

After 37, I can tell you that it doesn't get much better .

I hope to have perfected my selective hearing technique and be comfortably numb by then.

[stonecutter]

Re: Home brew concrete and cast-in-place concrete.

So, what I am doing on the oven base will look like a stacked cap. The first one will over hang the stonework by an inch. This one will only show as a band around the oven. The next one will over hang the first cap by an 1" - 1 1/4"ish, and it will carry over the top, right to the stonework on the oven surround. Still working out how I want to do the top...designing as I go really.

The concrete will be a light beige with charcoal and grey veining...I think. I'll probably just post those pictures in the Photo Gallery.

[Gulf]

Re: Home brew concrete and cast-in-place concrete.

Ahhh...the honey-do list. After almost 20 years, I have yet to make a dent.

After 37, I can tell you that it doesn't get much better .

[Gulf]

Re: Home brew concrete and cast-in-place concrete.

That is beautiful,
I wished that I had a comment or emoticon that could do justice to that work of art!

[stonecutter]

Re: Home brew concrete and cast-in-place concrete.

That is perfect for accepting a contrasting color. My wife would love that for her kitchen counters. She insists that, that is next on my list . After the new cabinet makeover, repainting and then the floors......I may have miised something on the list, it is is long and distinguished .

Ahhh...the honey-do list. After almost 20 years, I have yet to make a dent.

[stonecutter]

Re: Home brew concrete and cast-in-place concrete.

Close up of the profiled edge and a some of the finished product.