Type N Mortar

[JohnR]

I bought 7 bags of Type N mortar (not a mix, sand must be added) off craigslist with a bunch of bricks. If I understand Type N mortar is cement and lime... can I use this instead of portland cement to make v-crete? If not is there anything else I can do with this mortar? I also have one bag of type S mortar.

[Tscarborough]

Re: Type N Mortar

It may or may not have lime, but either way, it will work fine.

[JohnR]

Re: Type N Mortar

I did a google search for sand to cement ration for Type S mortar today... and I found Tscar's insight on a contractor forum... Thanks for the help.

[Gulf]

Re: Type N Mortar

It may or may not have lime, but either way, it will work fine.

I thought that Type N Mortar in the US of A had to be 1 to 1( portland cement and hydrated lime) or the equivelant. Does that mean that the "equivelant"............ need not to be lime at all .

[Tscarborough]

Re: Type N Mortar

Type N is a strength designation, not a material specification.

[Tscarborough]

Re: Type N Mortar

OK, I have a little more time to answer more fully. Because of the nature of mortar, there is no hard and fast rule on how to prepare a mortar for any particular job. Job conditions, environmental conditions, and different physical properties of the units being laid preclude a simple formula to specify mortar.

Without going into too much detail, there are 2 methods:

Properties specifications and Proportions specifications.

Properties specifications relies on lab testing field collected materials.
Proportions specifications relies on using long standing empirical ratios to specify mortar by ratios. This is what is used for homebrew, i.e. 1-1-1-3 to 6 by volume.

The ratio for Type N could be 1 Portland.1/2 Lime.2-1/4 to 3 Sand by volume (but that is not the only formulation possible, 1 Masonry Cement.2-1/4 to 3 Sand is another).

Over time that has been shown to provide a mortar that will meet or exceed the strength requirement of ASTM C-270, Type N, 750 psi compressive.

Here is a cogent explanation:

http://www.ce.udel.edu/courses/CIEG407/TEK%2009-01A.pdf

[Gulf]

Re: Type N Mortar

Yes you are correct about Type N being a "strength" designation. But, strength is also dependent on material composition.

That being said, I still don't see where Type N Mortar ( I should have also incuded the word Cement) can be sold as such, without lime being included as one of it's ingredients ................ And that includes your post and link as references.

[Tscarborough]

Re: Type N Mortar

In this part of the country, Type N masonry cement contains no lime. Type N mortar may.

Cement or masonry cement has no sand. Mortar contains sand.

If you understand mortar, you realize that strength is NOT constrained by materials. I can compose a Type N mortar that contains zero cementious products. No portland, no masonry at all.

The understanding of masonry is an art, one that is not well understood by most architects and engineers. The Zen of masonry is that you do not choose the strongest mortar available, you choose the weakest that will suffice.

[Tscarborough]

Re: Type N Mortar

Here is how to tell if your local masonry is composed of portland/lime or masonry cement:

Portland cement/lime bags of masonry Type S or N will weigh the same, usually 70#. The material in the bags will be in different ratios between the Portland and the lime. Each, mixed with the same amount of sand, will meet the proportion specification for their respective strength designation.

Bags of masonry cement will be 70# of cement for Type N, 75# of cement for Type S. The material in the bags is exactly the same, with just five more pounds of the same material for Type S. Each, mixed with the same amount of sand, will meet the proportion specification for their respective strength designation.

[Gulf]

Re: Type N Mortar

In this part of the country, Type N masonry cement contains no lime. Type N mortar may.

Sorry T,

I know that Texas is a big place. And I am sure that times have changed. But, this supplier AHI (which is located very near to the Houston and Baytown area of my roots) still holds true to the original formula). That is, a 1 to 1, portland cement to hydrated lime ratio. I bet that your local HD, Lowes,and neighborhood building supplies stock Type N Masonry Cement with similar formulas. I doubt that many of them will vary, one way or the other, from a 1 to 1 ratio.

If you understand mortar, you realize that strength is NOT constrained by materials. I can compose a Type N mortar that contains zero cementious products. No portland, no masonry at all.

No one that I know, living or dead, would call that "mortar"……............Maybe…….......... Glue!

The understanding of masonry is an art, one that is not well understood by most architects and engineers. The Zen of masonry is that you do not choose the strongest mortar available, you choose the weakest that will suffice.

I am sure that you are very much schooled in modern masonry. My understanding of it came by measuring portland cement, lime, and sand with a square point shovel.

I do, very much agree, with part of your last statement. I’ve seen plenty of archietechs and engieneers that could not relate to the "real world".

That could also apply to me ,.......... if the world has changed that dmn much .

EDIT: JohnR, Very sorry for the hijack. I do agree with TScar about the Type N Masonry Cement being OK for the vecrete. It will just coat the grains and help make the mix a little smoother.

[Tscarborough]

Re: Type N Mortar

I know the product of AHI very well, and a bunch of the guys that work there. They have a miniscule percent of the market, less than 1% for their (very good) PCL mix.

All of the Lowes and Home depots in Central Texas, Houston, Dallas, and San Antonio stock MC mortars, not PCL mortars, since I also am very familiar with their suppliers.

[JohnR]

Re: Type N Mortar

No apologies necessary! Lively conversation about mortar... can it get any better!

[JohnR]

Re: Type N Mortar

I am trying to make a 60" X 12" X 4"thick countertop ledge in front of my oven. I will use lots of rebar drilled into the hearth slab to reinforce the counter and then I will put a piece of granite on top.

Here is my question:

I have six bags of industrial grout, 6 bags of quikrete, and 6 bags of Type N cement... is there any combination of these materials that will work for making a strong blend. I don't mind going out and buying more concrete, but I thought if I could use my extras I would. Thank for the help.

[Tscarborough]

Re: Type N Mortar

If by industrial grout you mean non shrink grout, do not use it. Quickcrete is a brand, not a product.

[JohnR]

Re: Type N Mortar

I do mean non-shrink grout... Can I use it for anything? Filling my cinderblock bricks for added strength??? What is this stuff used for?

Ok, I have 6 bags of concrete and 6 bags of Type N masonry cement. Would a combination of these make a strong countertop mix?

Thanks for the reply