Update on my floor which exploded from steam re wet insulation

[david s]

Re: Update on my floor which exploded from steam re wet insulation

Indie bands,
By my calculations your door height to dome height is 68% so if you raised the floor by 3" then you would end up with a ratio of 60% which will work quite ok. I think trying to dig out 3" of the concrete slab would be way too hard and it may weaken the slab enough to risk collapse. You will still have the problem of the dome sitting, uninsulated on the supporting slab, but that shouldn't matter as much as getting the floor insulated. Just getting the four floor tiles out will be a trial I imagine.

[indiebands]

Builder left out floor insulation - now what?

"and offer practical solutions to help "

Get some insulation under the floor.

This is a no brainer.

So far this site is a form for passing along good design advise.

Newbie post here. It's a doozy, but I look forward to your advice (and am fully expecting my lashes).

I went on vacation with my builder building the pizza oven (a modular Zio Ciro 90cm 4 piece round oven kit - http://www.zio-ciro.com/UserFiles/Fi...vesuvio_en.pdf). That was a bad mistake. I had given him both the Rado Hand CD and a pizza oven design book as reference.

In any case, the end result is a built pizza oven with (a) ~6 inches of refractory cement/vermiculite insulation and a ceramic insulating blanket over the *DOME* and (b) the dome and 4 piece oven hearth lying directly on a ~10inch concrete slab. From what I have read, that means that the oven (in its current state) is going to be a beast to fire since the concrete slab will act as a heat sink.

Any ideas how to retrofit floor insulation? I am assuming (though I have not yet tried) that the floor elements can be removed, since they are lying directly on the concrete). If the floor elements can be removed, is it possible to use some kind of tight-space saw or grinder to slice out chunks of concrete slab under the floor to make enough space under the floor units to insert either chunks of insulating board or refractory cement with vermiculite before putting the floor elements back in? Alternatively, I wonder how tight the oven airflow engineering specs are - could I remove the floor elements, install 2 inches of insulation then replace the (trimmed) floor elements? The door height is 29cm and the peak height of the dome looks to be approximately 43cm from the floor level. If I cut those dimensions by 5cm to allow for the 2 inches of floor insulation, will that trash the oven airflow dynamics?

I realize this is a class A disaster and I have to admit frankly that I was not specific enough with the builder about the floor insulation. I am now just trying to figure out the best way to salvage the situation.

Thank you in advance for any advice or suggestions. This forum is an awesome resource. Just wish I had checked a little earlier :-(

[Neil2]

Re: Update on my floor which exploded from steam re wet insulation

"and offer practical solutions to help "

Get some insulation under the floor.

This is a no brainer.

So far this site is a forum for passing along good design advise.

[NJOven]

Re: Update on my floor which exploded from steam re wet insulation

Thanks. Will keep the thread updated.

[Tscarborough]

Re: Update on my floor which exploded from steam re wet insulation

You should use it and see if it will perform to your expectations. If it does, all is well. If not, then the normal buildup would be: Concrete slab, insulation, just enough sand/fireclay to level the floor and the oven floor itself.

[david s]

Re: Update on my floor which exploded from steam re wet insulation

Yes, if you can, replace the insulation under the floor. If space is a problem you probably don't need the 2" of fireclay under the bricks.

[NJOven]

Re: Update on my floor which exploded from steam re wet insulation

Hard to teach old dogs. Bottom line, if you have a forest at you disposal for fuel, don't mind 2-3 hr heat ups for a couple of pizzas, and are fine with that, then you have no issues.
The fact remains, you mason is exactly that, a mason, not a oven builder. Doing things one way for 20 years does not make it the best way. Homes were built for thousands of years without insulation and people were always cold or hot, it was shelter and thats all that mattered. You would not think of doing that today, we continue to evolve and look for better ways to build the mouse trap.
All anyone has been saying is you don't have an efficient design that offers much versatility. Hopefully you oven does what you want it to. Good luck, better get to splitting more wood.

RT

How is this responsive to the question I had asked above? You guys have made your point--multiple people have told me I got taken advantage of by a contractor that is not skilled in this area. Only recently in this thread have people even indicated my oven was capable of cooking pizza....

As for my needs, if I could could approx 5-7 pies, and a paella dish, for a dinner event I am happy. I won't mind adding wood during cooking. I really dont need the oven to retain 400 degrees the next morning so i can cook bread or roasts. I now realize my setup, without having used it yet, is not optimal according to the board experts. Was looking to see if there are measures I can take to help--as indicated by my last post before this, but it appears some keep wanting to hammer home the initial point re lack of insulation. I will wear a scarlet "I" on my forehead and allow myself to be stoned in the town square.

As some feedback to some on this board--maybe tone down your condemnation on passionate issues and offer practical solutions to help once you made your point rather than make someone who spent good money feel worse than is necessary.

[RTflorida]

Re: Update on my floor which exploded from steam re wet insulation

Hard to teach old dogs. Bottom line, if you have a forest at you disposal for fuel, don't mind 2-3 hr heat ups for a couple of pizzas, and are fine with that, then you have no issues.
The fact remains, you mason is exactly that, a mason, not a oven builder. Doing things one way for 20 years does not make it the best way. Homes were built for thousands of years without insulation and people were always cold or hot, it was shelter and thats all that mattered. You would not think of doing that today, we continue to evolve and look for better ways to build the mouse trap.
All anyone has been saying is you don't have an efficient design that offers much versatility. Hopefully you oven does what you want it to. Good luck, better get to splitting more wood.

RT

[NJOven]

Re: Update on my floor which exploded from steam re wet insulation

Ok, would it add any benefit if insulation could be added under the bottom of the floor slab above the hearth? Basically, it would be 1.5" fire brick floor, 2" fire clay, 2" refractory cement and then I could add some kind of insulation underneath the cement?

Thanks

[Tscarborough]

Re: Update on my floor which exploded from steam re wet insulation

If you are referring to me, that is exactly what I told you. Your oven is what it is, I want to work with your mason so that his future ovens will perform to their potential.

TexasSD is primarily a breadmaker (and a damn fine one at that), so that style of oven (Alan Scott) is more suited for his use. It still is insulated, but it has a greater mass to heat load for retained heat baking.

[NJOven]

Re: Update on my floor which exploded from steam re wet insulation

Thanks--this is helpful. Others made it seem my oven was incapable of melting butter.

[texassourdough]

Re: Update on my floor which exploded from steam re wet insulation

As someone who has a leaky hearth (built on a Scott style hearth) I would expect you to be able to do pizzas without too much trouble - but you will likely find you need to recharge the hearth every couple of pizzas OR keep a pretty big fire going or both. Oven management will take more attention. Your biggest limitation will be that you will not retain heat well for retained heat cooking and baking.

[david s]

Re: Update on my floor which exploded from steam re wet insulation

2" of fireclay will act as a good leveler for the floor bricks, but not particularly good as an insulating layer unless he added around 50 % vermiculite. Can't understand why any oven builder would abhor insulation, it is fundamental to the efficient functioning of any oven.

[Tscarborough]

Re: Update on my floor which exploded from steam re wet insulation

Not confrontational to you, but to your mason, very much so. He is wrong, and not insulating under the hearth is not only wrong, it is simple common sense. I would like to convince him he is wrong so he will quit building ovens incorrectly. In my job I have to deal with it, and believe me, it sucks to have to tell someone that their brand new 5 or 10 thousand dollar oven will never perform as expected, even though it was built by a 20 year mason. Just because someone does something wrong for 20 years does not make it right.

[NJOven]

Re: Update on my floor which exploded from steam re wet insulation

I just called the mason and my info was not correct. He did not replace the soaked floor "insulation" like he pulled out, but he took out part of the 5" concrete under the floor such that 2" fire bricks sit on top of 2" fire clay which is on top of 2" concrete. He abhors insulation and has been doing this a long time.

Well, he is wrong. Flat wrong, no question about it. Send him to contractortalk.com and ask him to post in the masonry forum.

I don't know if you are trying to help me or defend something else as your reply is, frankly, a bit confrontational. You didn't even respond to my factual correction on depth of materials and use of fire clay. Not looking for an argument here, but seems a bit cultish here???