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**arevalo53anos** · 03-24-2006, 04:47 AM

From Mailbox to Pompeii in Colorado

Drake:

Answering question 1)

Pictures could give you a better answer that lots of words.
The oven in the pics is 40' internal diameter, 41/2' sided bricks wall, 1/2' cladding, fiberglass and 2 1/2' vermiculite/cement isolation.
Pics in annex.

Luis

**arevalo53anos** · 03-24-2006, 04:57 AM

From Mailbox to Pompeii in Colorado

Drake:

Answering question 2.

I do not think that could be complicated. Worth the work. And there are not energy wasted.
Pics in annex

**arevalo53anos** · 03-24-2006, 05:04 AM

From Mailbox to Pompeii in Colorado

Drake:

Answering question 3

There will be always cracking.
No matter between certain limits.
There are a lot of solutions in this forum to mitigate this problem.
Was not a big deal for me.
See pics in annex

And welcome to this forum and good luck with your new passion (it will be)

Luis

**james** · 03-24-2006, 01:44 PM

Drake,

I think Luis comments are right on the mark. Here's a couple more things to add:

1. For the enclosure dimensions, you roughly have the following:

42" floor
8" walls (4" each side)
2" insulfrax (1" each)
8" vermiculite loose (4" each)

That means 60", plus the thickness of your upper walls.

2. The Island hearth is nice, but not necessary. I've done it, and it does take more time and planning. You can either install vermiculite layer under the concrete layer, or the vermiculite layer on top. The more of these we install, the more I am coming to believe that the vermiculite layer should go on top. The oven floor is more responsive, and still holds enough heat for baking and bread.

3. The vent area on both of my letterbox ovens had cracks that let out hot air and smoke -- which I sealed. If it makes you concerned, you can always buy a Casa insert.

They don't crack.

I would also add that you don't have to tell anyone about the change -- at least not anyone who won't cook in the oven. From the outside, it will be exactly the same, so the CC&R group shouldn't know or care about the difference.

There is a good cliche that I am looking for, that basically says better earlier than later. You will enjoy your Italian brick oven much more than you would a bread oven. It'll be great.
James

**DrakeRemoray** · 03-24-2006, 04:50 PM

Pouring the stand?

Thanks guys.

James you are right about it being better to find this out early!!

James are you saying that the hearth bricks should rest directly on the vermiculite concrete insulating layer? Does that give enough mass? How about laying them on the insulating layer but turning the heath bricks on their 4 1/2 inch side? That may give it a little more mass?? Opinions?

Another question. A builder friend of mine suggest we skip the slab and the concrete blocks and just build forms and pour the whole stand including a structural slab of concrete across the top of the stand. Then we would pour the insulating slab on top of that. Any thoughts on that?

**james** · 03-26-2006, 01:33 PM

Buongiorno Drake,

I think you can set the floor bricks on their flat side, directly on the insulating layer. You can put the bricks on their ends, but at that point your floor would be thicker than a commercial oven baking pizza in Italy right now. Still, if you are leaning toward bread and baking, it would definitely work.

I think you will save time and $ if you just dry stack you blocks. They cost $1.09 at Home Depot and you can dry stack them. The stand really just flies up.

Keep the questions coming.
James

**jengineer** · 04-07-2006, 12:44 PM

more Q's from Drake

Drake in Littleton Colorado, has a question regarding the foundation. I am excerpting part of our conversation below....

----------------------
I spent 10 years, high schools and college, in Lakewood and Denver

Due to your ground conditions you may want to consider using a more substantial foundation. I rememebr both our driveways had upheaval problems each winter/spring...

I sent him the link from Ontario Jim about his foundation (essentially a 10 inch thick table that is sunk to grade).
------------------------------------
His response -
I do have those expansive clay soils. I am considering pouring walls to a depth of 1ft below grade and skipping the slab altogether. This instead of a big slab which will always crack in Colorado and stacked cinderblock walls, and then pouring a top slab. I would pour the top slab (deck) at the same time as the walls, this would cut the build time by at least 1 weekend.

Any thoughts on that?
---------------------------------
Yes it has snowed in June in Denver. If I understand Andrew correctly the foundation will be a footing similar to that of a house bukilt up to the height needed for the waist high deck. No slab on the ground.

patrick

**CanuckJim** · 04-08-2006, 06:03 AM

Foundation

Pouring walls below grade is a good solution, but I'd go deeper. Consider sono tubes inside the walls as well. Sounds like we have similar soil considerations.

Jim

**DrakeRemoray** · 04-09-2006, 07:31 PM

I dug a big hole this weekend. I ended up renting a mini-excavator to both make sure I got it done this weekend and to save my back. We have really heavy clay soil.

The excavator also allowed me to go deeper. I am now planning on putting sonotubes in the four corners.

I am now planning on having the wall be 4 feet tall with 1 foot below grade and then sonotube foundations another 2 feet below that. Probably overkill, but with these expansive soils...

I then plan to backfill the center part of the stand and put some pave stone in there instead of any kind of flatwork. I think it will go nicely with the overall oven.

I WAS planning on pouring the top slab of the stand at the same time that I pour the walls and making it one monolithic stucture, but another engineer friend suggested that the top slab would have more lateral movement due to themal expansion and it might push and pull the walls. I guess this explains the slip plane made of aluminum flashing shown in the plans...Now I think I will pour the walls first and then pour the top slab.

Again, comments and suggestions are welcome!

**CanuckJim** · 04-11-2006, 06:18 AM

Excavations

Drake,

You'll be drilling sono holes anyway, so why not put one or two in the centre as well as the four corners?

Jim

**DrakeRemoray** · 04-12-2006, 08:25 AM

Jim, I am not pouring a bottom slab at all, so a sonotube in the center would not support anything, right? What would be the point? to support the pavestones? I am less worried about these since I have excavated a foot down and will fill with rubble...

Comments?

**DrakeRemoray** · 04-16-2006, 07:13 AM

I poured the walls...

Hi All,

Here are some photos of the stand creation. I rented forms ($35) and put down the sonotubes as described above. I got my crew together and had a "mix on site" concrete truck deliver the concrete to my house. We then basically filled up wheelbarrows and lifted each load into the form. I will remove the forms today sometime (24 hours after the pour). I mostly opted to go with this method because of the expansive soils and the freeze thaw cycle here in Colorado. Slabs crack very easily and this was actually faster and cheaper than the slab and concrete walls. I excavated last weekend (and a few nights this week on the sonotube holes), then formed and poured this weekend.

Comments welcome!

**DrakeRemoray** · 04-16-2006, 07:14 AM

More photos

Here are a few more photos of the pour, I will post some more when I remove the forms.

**DrakeRemoray** · 04-27-2006, 12:50 PM

The forms removed

Hi All,

Here are some pictures of the stand and insulating and structural slabs. The insulating slab (6:1 perlite to portland cement) is on top. I added a close up as well so you can see the texture.

The stand looks very much like a bunker at this point and the mess is a little distracting. Eyes on the prize!

Drake