foundation for cold weather

[Mingy]

Re: foundation for cold weather

Its good your inspector is nice, most of them are but they have to put up with a lot of BS and irate people sometimes. I try to use a sort of collaborative approach. You might be able to find the local codes on line and now where you stand. Do some research on 'slab on grade' construction and bring it with you.

[Dino69]

Re: foundation for cold weather

Thanks, Mingy.

I will have to go down there and have a non-confrontational meeting with him. He actually seemed like a nice guy. Admitted he had no idea what I was doing. Maybe he just threw out the "footing below frost line" thing because he didn't know what else to say.

Thanks again.

David

[Mingy]

Re: foundation for cold weather

Aegis,

That looks great. I am lovin' your roof lines.

I will have to ask my building inspector about the footing for my oven. He said, "footings below frost line." I will ask to see if there is an alternative.

Mingy,

I read an article a while ago that said something along the lines of if you make a pier foundation the piers should not be "attached" to the slab. It, meaning the slab, should almost ride on the piers. The gentleman in the article placed something between his piers and the slab. Like a felt or tar paper. Does that sound correct?

David

Most cities don't look at code for buildings below a certain size, usually about 100 square feet. Also, code is primarily associated with the safety of habitable buildings, which is obviously not the case with respect to overns. In the case of an oven, you want to pay attention to fire codes are another matter. I would ask any inspector to show me where code calls for a 36 square foot structure which is non-habitable (basically along the lines of a dog house) has any code requirements whatsoever. You don't want to make war with an inspector, but he's not the guy excavating and pouring and extra yard of concrete for nothing.

I'd ask a structural engineer if I had any doubts, but I don't have any doubts because I have one 24x40 foot building sitting on a slab on grade for 12 years and will have a 40x100 foot one built this summer. The existing building and the planned building slabs were both designed by structural engineers. This is required by code more to make sure the total load (building, contents, snow) will be adequately supported by the slab, especially around the periphery which bears the majority of the weight of the structure. Long story short, in a slab on grade building, the peripheral concrete is about 12" thick (I don't have the plans with me) and has a fair bit of rebar in it. This is just because of the weight of the building, contents (the new structure is 4000 square ft and has a second floor) and snow, not because of frost heave. Of course, if I had a soft soil like sand or something it might be different.

In any event, Usually they put tarpaper (or kinda like a cardboard tarpaper) so one concrete thing doesn't bond to another. Nonetheless, if your slab is sitting on the ground and it is on piers below the frost line, frost heave will cause the ground to force up on the concrete. If, for example, you have rebar between the piers and the slab, this will produce tremendous forces on the slab and piers. Perhaps the piers will be lifted, perhaps the slab will crack, maybe you'll be lucky and nothing will happen. If the slab is not fixed in any way to the piers, than it'll go up and down with no stress, which is exactly the same thing as if there were no piers there.

[flyfisherx]

Re: foundation for cold weather

John, you have done very well. Things are looking great. I think we tend to worry too much and over analyze everything we do. BTW Mike at Southbury Stone and Supply hooked me up. I made the mistake in bringing my wife....now I'm doing 8'x 9' cultured stone veneer on my living room fireplace. This will hopefully help my mortar skills when I get to my dome.

I too was worrying about frost, but as Mingy said, you don't see foundations on sidewalks. I think at best they dig down 8 or 10 inches, put down a gravel base and pour concrete.

I am going the sidewalk approach. I live on serious ledge. I can't put a shovel anywhere in my yard without hitting rock

Original poster JGV109: I live in New England and see no issue with a floating slab as long as your not attaching it to any other fixed structure.

[Dino69]

Re: foundation for cold weather

Aegis,

That looks great. I am lovin' your roof lines.

I will have to ask my building inspector about the footing for my oven. He said, "footings below frost line." I will ask to see if there is an alternative.

Mingy,

I read an article a while ago that said something along the lines of if you make a pier foundation the piers should not be "attached" to the slab. It, meaning the slab, should almost ride on the piers. The gentleman in the article placed something between his piers and the slab. Like a felt or tar paper. Does that sound correct?

David

[Aegis]

Re: foundation for cold weather

Niiiicccceeee!

I was thinking about using bricks for mine. My house has a brick exterior that looks like your bricks. My wife wants a rustic look, meaning stones. I looked at natural stone veneer and they wanted $4K :^0 ! So I figured I'd walk around my fields and use those rocks.

Very nice work.

Thanks Mingy, Those are actually pavers that I am using on their sides for a dry stack look. My wife is in charge of the decorating aspect, I only let her know what I can or can't do... which btw is different that what could be done verses what can't be done! lol The pavers weren't that expensive, and we couldn't find brick the color she wanted. I hope this holds up well, I am using type S mortar for the "veneering" of the pavers.

[Mingy]

Re: foundation for cold weather

Niiiicccceeee!

I was thinking about using bricks for mine. My house has a brick exterior that looks like your bricks. My wife wants a rustic look, meaning stones. I looked at natural stone veneer and they wanted $4K :^0 ! So I figured I'd walk around my fields and use those rocks.

Very nice work.

[Aegis]

Re: foundation for cold weather

Hopefull, it'll work out: did you get past the first winter ok?

Yes, it has made it through last years really tough winter we had here in New England. Last year I had the foundation and the stand completed before the winter. This year I have the oven with almost all enclosure done. It is still ok, but this winter is very mild. Which maybe worse for frost heaves, more freezing and thawing cycles.

When I designed and built my house, I bought the code and read through it (it doesn't address pizza ovens or other small structures. Even then, following code doesn't garantee success: I built an 800 square foot deck, 100% inspected and per code, and two of the vertical, sonotube supports went up (permanently) after 2 years. I can't even get anybody to tell me how this is possible. Fortunately, it is fixable: jack the deck up a scosh, trim the posts accordingly, and lower it down.

I also built a deck three years ago with the same sono tubes and posts. Those seem to be working quite well and is solid as a rock(so far)

Did you finish your oven? Mine is mostly done: I just have to put a stone veneer on the outside, make the door, and finish seasoning it.

I need to finish closing the back and finish veneering the sides. Here is a pic of present progress. btw: now the wife wants me to extend the patio around the back of that counter to the back end of the oven!
John

[Mingy]

Re: foundation for cold weather

Hopefull, it'll work out: did you get past the first winter ok?

Builders can be useful to consult, but they are in business, which can mean doing something for $20K when they can get the same result for $5K. Probably the worst people to ask would be concrete suppliers since they are in the business of selling concrete. Inspectors know the building code backwards and forwards, but the code often does not address specific things, and, in any even, often has all kinds of options.

When I designed and built my house, I bought the code and read through it (it doesn't address pizza ovens or other small structures. Even then, following code doesn't garantee success: I built an 800 square foot deck, 100% inspected and per code, and two of the vertical, sonotube supports went up (permanently) after 2 years. I can't even get anybody to tell me how this is possible. Fortunately, it is fixable: jack the deck up a scosh, trim the posts accordingly, and lower it down.

Did you finish your oven? Mine is mostly done: I just have to put a stone veneer on the outside, make the door, and finish seasoning it.

[Aegis]

Re: foundation for cold weather

I've seen lots of unusual solutions suggested here to the cold weather problem ranging from slabs a few feet thick to sonotubes down a few feet with a slab on top to a foundation below the frost line. These are not only expensive, they have their own issues like cost, or the possibility things could be worse as a result of the proposed solution. You can think of frost heave as expansion and contraction: The oven is so small, no matter what you do, the ground will freeze below it. Sonotubes will add weight (a downward force) putting huge strains on the slab.


By the way, I have heavy equipment, including a backhoe, so I don't have to dig by hand. Nonetheless, I don't see the point.


If you don't believe my link from the Canadian government, research slab on grade construction in cold areas. As I have said, it is quite common in cold climates for out buildings, etc.. Also, as I noted, when do see foundations around driveways or sidewalks?

Wish this info was available when I asked these questions two years ago All I got was to ask local builders and inspectors what was needed in my area. I will keep my fingers crossed and hope for the best. That is all I can do at this point....

[Mingy]

Re: foundation for cold weather

I've seen lots of unusual solutions suggested here to the cold weather problem ranging from slabs a few feet thick to sonotubes down a few feet with a slab on top to a foundation below the frost line. These are not only expensive, they have their own issues like cost, or the possibility things could be worse as a result of the proposed solution. You can think of frost heave as expansion and contraction: The oven is so small, no matter what you do, the ground will freeze below it. Sonotubes will add weight (a downward force) putting huge strains on the slab.

If you confine frozen earth (by boxing with a foundation) it will freeze and force up and out. This will probably be enough to crack any wall or slab. This doesn't happen with a house because a house if big (and heated).

A floating slab will rise up and settle down. We aren't talking a foot or two, more along the lines of an inch or so. If properly reinforced as per the instructions, it'll rise up a bit then settle down a bit. There will not be undue stress on the structure as with other solutions.

I should stress that any construction needs a suitable soil, regardless


* edit * I want to clarify my comments about a foundation and slab and stresses. When they build a house, they take care to not connect the floor slab to the foundation when the floor slab is ground level, like in a garage. This way, if there is soil movement upwards, the slab kind of floats and then settles back. So, if you build a foundation, below the frost line and a suspended slab (the bottom of the oven) and the floor (storage area) floats, you should be ok. Its a huge waste of effort and cost, but it should work. If you tie a frost wall or tubes into a ground level slab, thats when you've got the stresses I've mentioned.

By the way, I have heavy equipment, including a backhoe, so I don't have to dig by hand. Nonetheless, I don't see the point.


If you don't believe my link from the Canadian government, research slab on grade construction in cold areas. As I have said, it is quite common in cold climates for out buildings, etc.. Also, as I noted, when do see foundations around driveways or sidewalks?

[jgv109]

Re: foundation for cold weather

Thanks to everyone for sharing their approaches! I'm new to the forum but I have to say this seems like a great community of folks.

...at the moment my husband is concerned that a slab without a suitable foundation will not heave in a uniform way and the oven sitting on a slab without a foundation may be damaged...his current plan is to dig a trench 8-10" wide and 3 ' deep around the perimeter of the slab and fill it with concrete to the grade

I'll definitely encourage him to read through this forum before we start the dig...the "big dig" if we follow his plan

Thanks again! Best, Jeanna

[Neil2]

Re: foundation for cold weather

Mingy has it right.

A well reinforced floating slab is the way to go on frost susceptible soils. If it is tied in any way to the patio or other structures, consider a pile type foundation.

[Mingy]

Re: foundation for cold weather

There seems to be a lot of confusion about the impact of frost heave on various structures. People put a lot of effort into over engineering these things for no particular reason. You have to worry a lot about frost heave when you have to connect to other structures such as a deck connecting to a house.

I have a 24' x 40' garage on a slab and this summer will be constructing a 40' x 100' workshop on a slab. Thats just a floating slab. My oven is on a floating slab and there is no reason to be concerned than anything bad will happen as a result: it'll go up a bit and it'll settle down a but with the thaw/frost cycle. Nobody puts foundations or frostwalls or sonotubes on sidewalks do they?

So, remove the topsoil, make sure there is a well drained compacted gravel base and get going.

Have a look. This is from Canada. We know cold. http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/publicati...2000-127E.html The styrofoam is to reduce heat loss during the heating season, not to prevent frost heave.

[Dino69]

Re: foundation for cold weather

I will be doing a pier foundation as Aegis has done. Also planning on belling out the bottoms. My frost dept is only twentyfour inches so I will be going thirty, or a bit more, and adding drainage rock. I need to have a building permit here and "the man" said it would be fine.

They actually plan on coming out to inspect my footings. Then he said he would be back when it is all completed. Seems to me there might be a few things in between those two stages of building.

David