Newbie needing advice before jumping in!

[mlucas]

Hi everyone, I am new here, and hope to build a Pompeii style brick oven.
I will be on a very tight budget. (I really want a 44" dome, but I will build smaller if that is the only option in order to have a WFO.
I have access to the concrete block, and rebar. I can also get pretty much any amount needed of high temperature fire brick. The catch is, this is kiln fired at 3100*-3200*F so it is very hard, and high in Alumina. And it will all need to be cut. I have well over 150 pieces 1 1/2" X 12-18" x 4-4 1/4" (I was thinking I could cut them to 4 1/2" to maybe 5" for the dome.) I can get as much more as needed.
I have 6 pieces that are 24" x 36" x 2" that could be used for the floor. (These are extremely heavy!) and many that are 16" x 16" x 1 1/2"
I have plenty fire clay, sand, lime, and portland cement. I was a brick/block tender when I was a young lad. (Some 40+ years ago.) So I do know a little about laying brick/block.

My main concern is, Do I go with this type of fire brick that is free, and plentiful, or save up until I can purchase the correct fire brick? ($1.97 each is the cheapest I have found around here.)

Until I found this forum, I was going to just build a barrel style oven, but really always wanted a dome type.

Thanks for any and all feedback, good or bad!

[Novaslo]

Re: Newbie needing advice before jumping in!

It is hard to answer your question simply because most people "like me" won't understand what it is that you actually have.

The firebrick that I used and also the brick that comes in the Forno Bravo kit is low duty - or at least not "Heavy Duty" Fire Brick. It performs well and heats up nicely.
I think the problem with some of the Heavy Duty bricks out there is that they are harder to work with an possibly don't heat up properly.

Part of the magic of the build is making it so that you can have the floor and the dome heating in a uniform fashion. When you cook pizza if the floor isn't right, you will have a colder floor resulting in crust that is difficult to get right.

You get the idea when you think about the design is all about the cooking and the way it heats etc.

You want to use lots of insulation and if you can, find out if others are using that type of brick for these applications.
I know it will work, it just might not be ideal.

Good luck.

[Tscarborough]

Re: Newbie needing advice before jumping in!

Those brick are workable, but not optimal. Especially for the floor, you should use low duty firebrick.

[mlucas]

Re: Newbie needing advice before jumping in!

Would it not be best to use the same type fire brick for the floor, and dome?

My thinking was that if I start with these bricks, I'd be best off to use them for both floor, and dome! Regardless if they heat up faster, slower, hotter, or not so hot, that at least the temperatures would be consistent.

[rodeair]

Re: Newbie needing advice before jumping in!

This job is so labor intensive, the last thing I would shortcut is the brick. If the heavy duty stuff doesn't work well, you will be stuck. I don't know about the different type brick, but I do know it's a big job.

[Wiley]

Re: Newbie needing advice before jumping in!

I'm going to hazard to say that I suspect you will be fine using what you have. Some people may say that high duty fire brick gets too hot..so don't fire it for so long or build a smaller fire.

Not too many years ago the idea of using a thick steel plate for a cooking surface for pizza was absurd. The considered opinion was that it would get too hot and burn the crust. And now a steel plate is being touted as the "best" way to go. I guess they filled the market for ceramic pizza stones and now need to sell more stuff.
Amazon.com: steel pizza stone

So I think you will probably be fine using what you have especially considering you made it clear that you are on a tight budget. I suspect you will simply have to learn your WFO. Recipe times will be different. You may have to build a small fire and let it burn for a longer time rather than the roaring inferno some need to saturate their bricks.

WFOs are built out of all sorts of materials. Your oven will be different that's all... maybe even better in some ways than others.

Hope this helps,
Wiley

[Tscarborough]

Re: Newbie needing advice before jumping in!

It doesn't "get too hot" it transmits heat too rapidly. At 450-550, it doesn't matter, but at 800+, it makes a huge difference. If you want to cook at 4-500, just use your kitchen oven.

[Wiley]

Re: Newbie needing advice before jumping in!

Here's a discussion of a few years back:
http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f44/...ata-16087.html

I am not suggesting using a steel hearth (temps suggested by makers are in your 550 degree range) and I couldn't find figures for heat transmission or transfer rate for low versus medium versus high alumina fire brick. However, a bit of research online indicates that the bricks in question are not just high duty fire brick but rather High Fired Super Duty. This puts them a couple grades above simple low, medium and high duty.
http://mobile.ceramicartsdaily.org/w...rick-types.pdf

It's in part a matter of semantics whether one says "gets too hot" or "transmits heat too rapidly" These guys refer to high alumina high duty bricks as unsuitable for bread as they "get too hot". Odd their phrasing is almost exactly the same as that referred to in the thread and credited to the Forno Bravo Brick Primer*:
Fire Bricks | Refractory Blocks

Personally I like Tscarboughs description that they transmit heat too quickly as opposed to they get too hot as getting too hot infers that simply lowering the heat would mitigate the too hot issue. This is in part discussed in the Forno Bravo thread I linked to above. If one accepts too high rate of heat transmission/transfer argument then the bricks in question would be unsuitable for the hearth. However, I still think they would work for the dome. My dome is in part steel and steel would have a faster transmission rate than these bricks. There have been several people on the forum who are using or at least say they are using heavy steel plate for their domes without any refractory heat sink/reservoir.

If you are willing to go to the effort of cutting the High Fired Super Duty bricks you have I still think they would work for the dome but you might have better results using medium duty for the hearth.

Hope this helps,
Wiley
* I get an uneasy feeling when sources seem to use exactly the same phrasing in their statements. I have found no empirical data to support the contention...I'm not saying it's wrong, just that there are times when something is repeated as fact when in reality it is only an opinion (with sources each quoting the other). Has anyone built or know of an WFO built using high duty fire bricks? If so, did it fail and need rebuilding to work?

[RandyJ]

Re: Newbie needing advice before jumping in!

I would hazzard a guess to say that if you got some low duty bricks for your cooking floor the bricks you already have for the dome and vent you will be just fine. This is what I am doing. I have some low duty (30.78% alumina) for the floor, and the rest of my bricks are super duty. I have been told they can be hard to cut but I have had no problems with cutting them yet. Just my opinion, but also what I am doing on my build.

Randy

[david s]

Re: Newbie needing advice before jumping in!

If you can get the high duty bricks for free that's what I'd be using. They are very dense and will be harder to cut, but if you consider your time is for free then that is probably not too much of a consideration.

[RandyJ]

Re: Newbie needing advice before jumping in!

Hey David the bricks that I have are Jet D.P. bricks I was told they were super duty by this guy I got them from. I have not noticed that they are that much harder to cut than the rest of the bricks that I have. Here is a picture of what I have.

Randy

[RandyJ]

Re: Newbie needing advice before jumping in!

Ok I just did some looking and I guess u just have high duty. Although I think there might be a few pilot DP mixed in. Thoes are the super duty.

Randy