Give a shit pills

[Les]

I'M RUNNING OUT!

I threw this out before, but I am curious - how big of a gap can we tolerate between bricks on the inside before we need mortar? It seems to me that if we clad the exterior of the dome properly (no gasses can escape), we should be fine. It may enhance some spalling but is that any worse than having mortar chip off?

Any input is always appreciated.

Les...

[Ken524]

Re: Give a shit pills

I'M RUNNING OUT!

When I run out, I take a breather for a few days.

[Unofornaio]

Re: Give a shit pills

Hey Les,

how big of a gap can we tolerate between bricks on the inside before we need mortar?

> before we need mortar? If you are thinking of laying the bed joint and not the head joints the problem with this as I see it is these areas are going to move differently..which is not a good thing at all.

In addition having a full head joint and the cladding as apposed to just the cladding for the fire to attack, which it will (it reaches everywhere) will extend the life of the oven structure.

[Les]

Re: Give a shit pills

Thanks for the reply Uno - actually, I was hoping to avoid all mortar on the inside of the oven and just use it on the back side. I should be able to cut the brick to achieve a 1/8 inch gap maximum (and in many areas, a brick to brick fit). And with that small of a gap, the application of mortar seems to be more of a pain then a benefit. Would you still recommend filling the gap with mortar?

Thanks,

Les...

[Unofornaio]

Re: Give a shit pills

I was hoping to avoid all mortar on the inside of the oven and just use it on the back side.
>You do mean just the head joints right? not dry stacking the whole dome?

And with that small of a gap, the application of mortar seems to be more of a pain then a benefit.
> Let me put it this way I have watched and or helped my father build on the order of 50 fireplaces (a mear fraction of what he has done) in my life and built probably half that on my own. He taught me to keep the joints, head an bed, in the fire box to a minimum of between 1/4 and 1/8" using fire-clay and Portland. I cannot recall him or me being called back to fill joints because of deterioration.

As I see this issue, assuming you are just taking about the absence of the head joint, is figuring out if the lack of mortar in just this area is going to:

1. Allow fire to creep in the gap and do more damage than if it were not in there.
2. Allow this area to expand at a different rate than the rest of the bricks surface that is in contact with mortar and what structural effect this will eventually have on the oven.
3. If you "give a S$#!" enough to figure this out or just use mortar

Would you still recommend filling the gap with mortar?
>yes not filling the gap but laying them with mortar. butter the bricks put them in place and strike off the excess.

I'm not trying to be a smart A$$ but deviating this far from traditional methods brings with it questions that may not have answers to them. I know I do not have a definitive answer to how this will effect the structure but my initial instinct tells me its not a good idea.

I DO know that having these materials expand and contract at different rates will eventually do more damage to the oven than putting in the joints and having the need to re-point them at some point..which at 1/8"-1/4" is highly unlikely you will ever have to do.

I think its safe to assume that the areas not restricted by mortar will move at a different rate and direction than those that do not have mortar. Think of it this way if you have a perfect square of bricks divided into 2 parts some with full joints others with partial joints and you were to heat it up I would think it would expand out of square it would have to. The question then becomes will this be detrimental to the structure.. again I do not know but assume it will.

[Les]

Re: Give a shit pills

Uno,

Thanks for the response. Here is a pic of the delimma. In trying to get the brick as close as possible, there isn't much room for mortar. I thought this was a good thing. Without tearing the coarses down, I'll try and point what I can and point forward, add a liitle mortar to the joints.

Thanks for your insight!

Les...

[Unofornaio]

Re: Give a shit pills

Holey $#@ you did mean NO MORTAR.... You should change your build documentation to say "exercise in patients" rather then "building a brick oven"

So strike everything I just said...

If you are going with NO mortar at all don't add it here and there, its either one or the other.

You know pulling this off will automatically put you in the Brick Oven Builders Hall of Fame right??
I see the first endorsement deal after the oven is done.. its coming from MK they want you to promote their diamond blades..then its on to a tour of the local math classes giving speeches on calculating angles titled "math, application for the real world"

[RTflorida]

Re: Give a shit pills

Damn Les, I knew you were building a "cut to fit"; but this...this... In my simple mind, I was thinking of something similar to what I did - minimal joints (around 1/8" on the sides). Your the master.....unbelievably precise work.

[Les]

Re: Give a shit pills

Thanks Guy's, appreciate the comments. RT, in regard to touring math classes - that's where I ran out of pills. My plans started flying out the window. The tolerances of the brick, and then the saw.... Harbor Freight needs to sell a "brick mill". Then we can treat these damn things like they were a chunk of metal. It would be a beautiful thing, but it only exist in Les land...

Les...

[Hendo]

Re: Give a shit pills

Les,

What type of mortar are you using? I?m using a pre-mixed air-set refractory mortar, which the manufacturer says should be applied as thinly as possible (max 2mm) and the bricks laid up by rubbing and/or tapping into position to achieve as much brick to brick contact as possible.

Personally, I wouldn?t worry too much about the thin joints if you?re using something similar. See a couple of photo?s below. One is of my first few rings and the second where I joined two brick pieces together ? can?t get much thinner than this!

Your cutting looks fantastic! Great fun, what?

Cheers, Paul.

[Les]

Re: Give a shit pills

Paul,

I am using heat stop 50. The mix that is listed on this site seems pretty close in texture and a DAMN lot cheaper to make. When I run out of the heat stop, I think I will just "roll my own".

YOUR cuts are looking awesome! In regard to great fun - not sure. We were out to dinner tonight when the skies decided to open up - we flew out of the restaurant so I could get home and cover things up. Add to that the snow will be flying soon, so I probably won't see fire until spring.

Les...

[Unofornaio]

Re: Give a shit pills

Harbor Freight needs to sell a "brick mill". Then we can treat these damn things like they were a chunk of metal. It would be a beautiful thing, but it only exist in Les land...



Actually---- If you have a metal chop saw (or get one from HF) that will accommodate a 12" carborundum masonry blade you can use this to "mill" the brick edges down just like metal.
Holding the brick to the side of the running blade will trim them down quite nicely.

I hope a tone of disapproval did not resonate from my last post, if so that was not my intention. I think this can work and it looks great, however you are going to need to find a good source for those pills...

[Les]

Re: Give a shit pills

Uno - no tone detected. You're cool and your input is appreciated! The issue I was having was the acceptable gap. I thinks I will continue my coarse, and if I crash and burn, other should not follow.

This is what's so great about this forum - we are all building from each others experience - no competition, just helping out our brothers of the brick.

Les...

[christo]

Re: Give a shit pills

Les and Paul,

Those ovens are looking too good!!! I'm getting asheamed and may have to start removing my pictures as my oven looks so shabby!!!!

Wonderful starts!

christo

[edschmidt]

Re: Give a shit pills

Im going to preface this by saying that the oven I built is not brick, but refractory triangles which I cast. I built mine without mortaring the triangles together, I placed them together, added 3" of steel reinforced concrete to the exterior, and have been firing for 1 1/2 years with no issues. My theory was the since the oven doesnt heat evenly during firing that trying to glue everything together is just inviting cracks. I figure mine works like teutonic plates all acting together, but seperate. As long as you are cutting at least 3 sides so they cannot fall in I say your golden. (but if not dont blame me)