firebrick conundrum. Help needed, not offered.

[KEmerson]

Re: firebrick conundrum. Help needed, not offered.

RT: Thanks, that's about all I needed.
David: Thanks but I just needed clarification on something confusing me. I'd rather do all this leg work, gather what I can and build. I enjoy this learning process almost as much as I enjoy the building and the results. Kits are what I avoid.

I'm generally happy with the bricks I've found. The #1 brick is probably safest all around. Thanks all.
Kim

[Gromit]

Re: firebrick conundrum. Help needed, not offered.

Kim,

You could also purchase this
Pompeii90 Oven Kit :: Installation Accessories :: Forno Bravo Store or this Pompeii110 Oven Kit :: Installation Accessories :: Forno Bravo Store and have 100% peace of mind that you are buying the right materials.

[RTflorida]

Re: firebrick conundrum. Help needed, not offered.

Kim,
I don't think you are any more confused, just fretting over it more than most.
In my speaking with a refractory specialist (remember this was over 2 1/2 yrs ago, so my memory may be spotty) I was told the terms "light", "medium" and "heavy" are not used in the refractory industry.....these are generalized terms used to categorize bricks for non specific applications. Industrial applications require specific duty ratings and would never utilize bricks sold by such generalized terminology.
As I was told, a "light duty" could have a alumina content from around 18% to around 35%, "medium duty" from 35%-48/50%, and "heavy duty" up to 80% (usually in the mid 50s-60s).
Naturally, these varying formulas are going to affect weight, not to mention the exact dimensions.
We do not have an actual firebrick manufacurers representative who is highly active on this forum (at least no one stands out to me), so we use a lot of the generalizations. Remember, space shuttle technology is not needed to build a perfectly functional oven that will last a lifetime.

Generally speaking (using that term again), ANY one of the 3 brick options you have listed above should work fine; #1 and #2 most definitely, #3 does sound a bit light but they certainly do not sound like insulating brick (yes, they are only 2-2.5 lbs and are almost always white in color) or "heavy duty" (yes, they are the heaviest at over 9 lbs). I have held them all in my hands and at the time of my build, I read the MDS for all of them.

If you REALLY must know, you are going to have to find the specific manufacturer for each of your options and request an MDS for each. As I mentioned, I went to a refractory specialist and learned everything I though I needed to know, then found and purchased bricks that were simply sold as light duty fireplace bricks at a normal brickyard (no MDS provided) because they were far cheaper than the other suppliers.

Just pick one of the 3 and get building, you will be fine.

RT

[KEmerson]

Re: firebrick conundrum. Help needed, not offered.

Any notion I got about this was right here. I can't find any, though; I've been all over this forum for many months and cannot pick through the haystack for that particular needle. And it is very likely I simply misunderstood, but I will say that I feel I read it more than once. Maybe some posts were not clear themselves. Who knows? But I thought that to a great extent we are paying attention to the alumna/silica ratio. That more alumina makes a brick heavier duty all the way to becoming insulating brick. That alumina weighs less than silica so that the balance would mean more alumina = lighter weight than the reverse. So I thought a higher % of alumina i.e. above 30% or so just makes a brick heavier in its duty rating - or whatever that's called.
I may have been confused by James' brick primer. He mentions that insulating brick is very light weight - 2#. And that heavy duty firebrick has a very high alumina content. So in my head alumina then is lighter than silica and my logic told me (nasty logic!) that more alumina means heavier duty means in turn lighter brick. I may have seen heavy duty and insulating brick as either the same thing or close to it.
So, if you please, rather than my proving my apparently misguided research, could I just have the straight poop on this. I tend to doubt I'm the only one so confused. But I could be.
Thanks very much for the help. This forum is a far better resource, it seems, than even the vendors are.
Kim

[dmun]

Re: firebrick conundrum. Help needed, not offered.

Heavy duty brick are heavier in weight? I thought it was the opposite. Most of what I think I've read seems to suggest that light duty=heavy weight; heavy duty=light weight.

Links? This may require more than my "what I've heard" approach. Please share your research with us.

[KEmerson]

Re: firebrick conundrum. Help needed, not offered.

Heavy duty brick are heavier in weight? I thought it was the opposite. Most of what I think I've read seems to suggest that light duty=heavy weight; heavy duty=light weight. Which should mean that the brick of the same size weighing in at 8# is the light duty and that the brick weighing 5# is the heavy duty. But from your post here you suggest that the 5# being lighter in weight is the lighter duty brick and so would be the one I want. Which all seems about 100% opposite of all I've been reading. To clarify: 1. I am working under the assumption that for a Pompeii pizza oven I need light or medium duty brick and to avoid heavy duty. 2. As above, light duty = heavier weight;heavy duty = lighter weight. But now I'm confused. Where am I wrong?
Thanks

[dmun]

Re: firebrick conundrum. Help needed, not offered.

They might be insulating firebricks used in kilns. Not suitable, if so. Higher duty firebricks are denser, harder, and heavier than low duty.

[KEmerson]

Re: firebrick conundrum. Help needed, not offered.

I agree it's light. The thing is, when I hear about heavy, medium and light duty, I have not heard what constitutes which as that I know the 8# is light duty, but what weights are medium and heavy for the same size brick.? I understand that for our purposes we can get away with light & medium and to avoid heavy duty. So I don't know the range of acceptability. If 8# is light duty, what are medium and heavy duty? Is heavy duty 4#? 3#? Would these 5# bricks be to light in weight and too heavy in duty? (That is one strange sounding question.)

[papavino]

Re: firebrick conundrum. Help needed, not offered.

5# seems a bit light. Most firebricks are around 8# for that size, if I recall. At least mine are.

[KEmerson]

Re: firebrick conundrum. Help needed, not offered.

ok, next question: I have a friend who works with brick and he says he can get me brick which are 4" x 9" x 2.5" weighs exactly 5# and cost about .75 ea.That weight seems low to me. Here's his email to me, "These are real firebrick that we use in commercial boilers that has a flame of about 2400 degrees plus. It's the same fire brick used in wood stoves except in the stoves they use a split brick (1" thick)" Any ideas, anyone? It would be great to save $$. Or is .35/brick not a huge savings?
Thanks all.

[KEmerson]

Re: firebrick conundrum. Help needed, not offered.

Wesslock: Durham is a stone's throw away (I get met from Heather Ridge in Preston Hollow when they come to the farmer's market here). Yes, I'd love to see the oven especially since it is incomplete. Weekends are fine with me. Email me kim@hearth2hearth.com and maybe we can arrange something. Thank you!!

pizza_bob: Thanks for the MSDS. This shows the alumina/silica ratio to be about what I understand to be what we need - roughly a 30% alumina.

Thanks,
Kim

[wesslock]

Re: firebrick conundrum. Help needed, not offered.

My oven is in Durham , on the way to Windham. I am only there on weekends , if we could work it out you could swing by. Maybe could time it for lunch. I still havent finished the outside - have been too busy making pizza and quite tired of moving rocks.

[pizza_bob]

Re: firebrick conundrum. Help needed, not offered.

I recently purchased firebrick from a masonry supply shop in New Haven, CT. I think I checked all of the masonry supply shops in CT and they all seem to carry low duty firebrick (buff and red). Some offered #1 size and others only offered #2. I ended up going with #1 size (buff) for $1.25 each. One thing all these suppliers and bricks had in common was the manufacturer - Whiteacre Greer. Their website carried the MSDS and I attached it below. I'm not sure if their product is the best quality or the most appropriate for a pizza oven but it was all that I can find in my area. One complaint I have is that the bricks seem to chip so easily! You look at them the wrong way and a corner chips off!

Goo luck with your search and build.

Regards,
Bob

[KEmerson]

Re: firebrick conundrum. Help needed, not offered.

Kingston Block? That's where I got brick #2 above. Are you local? Can I see your oven? I'm in Saugerties. Brick #1 is from Nelsen in Saugerties.

[Dutchoven]

Re: firebrick conundrum. Help needed, not offered.

I bought heatstop from Kingston Block , I think it was called which is only a couple of minutes away. I too think I got the wrong fire brick - altho my oven works I dont think it holds heat as well as it should. Seems to me the floor gets cooler after I cook for a while but there may be other issues.

I got my firebrick from G&H in Greenville and they werent too helpful either.

It shouldn't have all that much to do with the brick type...it is quite unlikely that you would get the really high duty bricks from your average brickyard...all of our ovens lose heat to cooking foods but if you are well insulated you should be OK if you allow the oven to recover a bit before loading again...for instance with ours during retained heat baking the oven is loaded at a floor temperature of lets say 500F when the loaves are finished 22 to 25 minutes later the floor will have dropped to about 440F...we let the oven rest about 15 minutes then steam it which cools it a bit again but in about another 10 to 15 minutes it will be time for loading again and most of the floor will be back up in the neighborhood of 490 to 500...CanuckJim said it very well when he said that a WFO is something you work with rather than something you cook on or in...definitely more like a member of your staff than it is a piece of equipment
All the best!
Dutch