Refractory Mortar Poll

[philiph4@ameritech.net]

Re: Refractory Mortar Poll

Is this the wet stuff in tubs? This has a bad reputation around here (won't dry, isn't waterproof etc) but let us know about the brand you're using.

Yes this is the wet stuff in tubs. I am nearly finished with the dome. Now you've got me worried.

[philiph4@ameritech.net]

Re: Refractory Mortar Poll

Yes it is refractory mortar.

[ThisOldGarageNJ]

Re: Refractory Mortar Poll

this is the MSDS for the super Demon Wet

2 mg/m3
Alkaline
SECTION II- HAZARDOUS INGREDIENTS
General
Chemical
Formula
Aluminum Phosphate
Graphite
Zirconium Silicate***
Fused Silica***
Amorphous Silica***
Cristobalite***
Ingredients (checked)
Quartz***
PLIBRICO COMPANY LLC Material Safety Data Sheet
Refractory Engineers
1010 N. Hooker Street
Chicago, Illinois 60622
Phone: (312) 337-9000
Fax: (312) 337- 9003
SECTION I - MATERIAL IDENTIFICATION
Date:
Page 1 of 2
Percent
By Weight
TLV (ACGIH) C.A.S. No.
Special Notes: *** Greater amounts of Quartz and Cristobalite may be formed after firing.
Major portion of the crystalline silica present in the product as manufactured is not fine enough to
normally be considered respirable.
SECTION III- PHYSICAL DATA
4/17/2007
SECTION IV- FIRE AND EXPLOSION HAZARD DATA
C
1446446-1
69012-64-2
60676-86-0
14940-68-2
7782-42-5
7784-30-7
SiO2 14808-60-7
SiO 2
SiO 2
SiO 2
ZrSiO4
2 mg/m3 (respirable dust)
0.1 mg/m3 (respirable dust)
5 mg/m3
2.5 mg/m3
SECTION V- REACTIVITY DATA
Chemical Name and Synonyms: Refractory Plastic Fireclay
4.08
Chemical/Mineral Family: Alumino Silicate Manufactureres Code I.D. : L - 2014
Trade Name and Synonyms: Super Demon Air Set Wet Product Number: 17001
Al 2 O3 - 41.5 % SiO2 - 52.1 %
X
AlH 3 PO4 -
Stability: Hazardous Polymerization:
Incompatibility: Materials to avoid: N/A N/A
Stable May not occur
Hazardous Decomposition:
Silicon Carbide SiC 10 mg/m3 (respirable dust) 409-21-2
o
Improper mixing and bake-out of materials may result in steam spalling during initial heating.
Refer to mixing instructions and bake-out schedules for proper procedures.
Unusual Fire and
Explosive Hazards:
Ceramic Fiber N/A 5 mg/m (respirable dust), 142844-00-6
15mg/m 3 (total), 0.5 fiber/ cc
3
Boiling Point ( ):
Solubility in Water:
Appearance and Odor:
Specific Gravity:
Percent Volatile by Volume (%):
N/A
20%
Brown Paste
2.1
N/A
pH:
0.025 mg/m3 (respirable dust)
0.025 mg/m3 (respirable dust)
SECTION VI- HEALTH HAZARD DATA
SECTION VII- SPILL OR LEAK PROCEDURES
SECTION VIII - SPECIAL PROTECTION INFORMATION
Super Demon Air Set Wet
Primary Route of Entry: Inhalation, Ingestion, Skin Contact
Page 2 of 2
SECTION X - SPECIAL PRECAUTIONS
SECTION IX - TRANSPORT INFORMATION
Trade Name and Synonyms:
DOT Proper Shipping Name (29 CFR 172.101): Not Regulated
DOT Hazard Class (29 CFR 172.101): Not Regulated
UN/NA Code (49 CFR 172.101): Not applicable
DOT Labels Required (49 CFR 172.101): Not applicable
DOT Placards Required (49 CFR 172.504): Not applicable
Land Transport ADR/RID (cross-border): Not regulated
Maritime Transport IMDG: Not regulated
Air Transport ICAO-TI and IATA-DGR: Not regulated
Date: 4/17/2007
Effects of overexposure:
2. Chronic: Long term inhalation of respirable quartz, cristobalite, fused silica and/or amorphous silica may
cause silicosis (delayed lung injury) and other respiratory disorders.
3. Prolonged contact with skin may cause irritation.
5. Canadian WHMIS : D2A
1. Acute: Exposure to nuisance dust may cause temporary irritation or discomfort to skin, eyes, nose, throat
or lungs and may aggravate bronchial disorders.
4. IARC: sufficient evidence for the carcinogenicity of crystalline silca to humans. (Group 1)
Emergency and first aid procedures:
Rinse affected areas with water. For eye contact, flush with water and get medical attention
For excessive inhalation - remove to fresh air.
For skin contact - wash with soap and water.
If irritation persits, call a physician.
Steps to be taken in case material is released or spilled:
Use routine housekeeping procedures, avoid dusting, collect material in closed containers or bags.
Waste Disposal Method:
According to the EPA (40CFR 261.3) wastes are not hazardous wastes. Wastes may be disposed of in a landfill,
however, in accordance with federal, state, and local regulations.
Ventilation:
Local and Mechanical: follow OSHA STD 29 CFR 1910.94.
Protection Gloves: Protective gloves recommended.
Eye Protection: Safety glasses/goggles.
Other Protective Equipment: As required to meet applicable OSHA standards.
Respiratory Protection:
Good ventilation should be provided if dust is created when working with materials. Used material, which is being
removed, should be dampend to reduce dust. In addition, when dust is present, workers should employ repirator
protection. Recommended: NIOSH approved respirator for dusts and mists, including silica, in compliance with
OSHA STD 29.CFR1910.134.
Precautions to be taken in handling and storage: To ensure product qualilty, store in a dry place.
Additional Notes: The data provided herein is believed to be correct and is obtained from sources believed to be
reliable. Plibrico Company shall not be liable for injury arising by either misuse of materials, or failure to follow safety
procedures as outlined in the material safety data sheet.

Im sure there's a usefull answer in here somewhere .... anyone see it, Maybe you can homebrew or render your dome with refmix before you have a problem,, Does It fell like its still wet ? Is it skinning over at all ?
Mark

[philiph4@ameritech.net]

Re: Refractory Mortar Poll

this is the MSDS for the super Demon Wet Im sure there's a usefull answer in here somewhere .... anyone see it, Maybe you can homebrew or render your dome with refmix before you have a problem,, Does It fell like its still wet ? Is it skinning over at all ?
Mark

Yes it is skinning over and feels dry to the touch. It has performed well in the construction of the dome. I am 98% done with the dome. All I have left is the last course and center keystone.

[ThisOldGarageNJ]

Re: Refractory Mortar Poll

Hey Phillip,
Isnt this stuff cured by heat ?,, Maybe a small electric heater in the dome to help slowly speed things up... Hopefully you will be okay,

Mark

[Lars]

Re: Refractory Mortar Poll

Phillip,
I used that same stuff ( got a sample from a local high heat supplier of kiln/furnace/burner materials) and stopped after laying the floor with it. It was WAY too easy to dissolve with water.

Since you have gotten this far, I strongly urge you to get two tarps over that baby immediately. After that, pick a nice cool (dry) day and FIRE IT HARD!!! Get that stuff to change into a water repellent solid mortar. No need for curing that slowly. If you have any cracks develop, just fill them in later with the same stuff and fire it hard again.

That is just my personal opinion, but I started using home brew after I realized one good rain would wash everything away if it wasn't perfectly covered up.

I think if you can really fire it hard ( that stuff dries pretty fast and tough) and I mean get the entire inside of the dome to 'go white'. It will be a great oven.

Lars.

[Ken524]

Re: Refractory Mortar Poll

I'll offer a slightly different opinion than Lars. Follow the curing schedule. If you have been using wet bricks, you want to drive the water out slowly. In the meantime, keep it covered.

[Lars]

Re: Refractory Mortar Poll

Prudent advice from Ken, Philip...

If you are not sealed up with tons of moisture holding mortar, I think the bricks would give up their moisture without a fight ( cracks) Your mortar will not 'cure' until the whole thing gets HOT. (600-700 degrees at least) and I am not sure that particular mortar will even become water resistant at that temp. To be more certain, make a ball of it... and fire it when you start firing the oven. ( make several... and try dissolving them after various heat levels)

Of course, holding the heat in against that mortar would also help. Do you plan a blanket insulation or portland/vermiculite? I would recommend the blanket so you don't have to introduce the many gallons of moisture from the portland vermiculite layers. You could, of course, put that on LATER... over the blanket... after the cure...and either let that dry out naturally, or just use the oven and it would get better and better as the portland/verm. layer dries up.

If you have the insulating blanket, you could just lay it over the dome while firing. Whether you go slowly, or a little faster, the mortar you used will not be affected until it starts getting hot...and it can take EXTREME heat... way more than you can generate with any wood fire. With the blanket on there, it may contain the heat against your outer mortar as well ( thus getting it cured) but I am not sure on this point --my guess. With the test balls ( of mortar) you can maybe get a feel for how well you have cured the mortar between the bricks.


Sorry for this long 'river of thought' when you probably could be slightly confused at the 'wood oven logic' ( at least, I was when I had not yet fired my oven).

Hope this helps and makes sense to others as well.

Lars.

[philiph4@ameritech.net]

Re: Refractory Mortar Poll

I am planning to use KAO wool blanket (already purchased). Do you think I should fire it before or after I put the Blanket on? I would like to see what it looks like before I cover it with the KAO (Patching cracks if necessary). I will cover the whole thing with stucco in the end.

[Lars]

Re: Refractory Mortar Poll

Philip,
I would actually cut the pieces of blanket and cover it up to fire it. Since yours is kind of a special situation, I might be inclined to uncover and inspect after the firing.

Having anything on there will keep the heat on the outside of the bricks and the mortar and perhaps reduce the likelihood of cracking.

Things CRACK when the inside is heated highly and outside is allowed to be cool in the breeze. Just having a layer of blanket on there will lessen this situation.

L.

ps. Do you plan to put portland/vermiculite over the blanket ( and stucco on top of that?)

[philiph4@ameritech.net]

Re: Refractory Mortar Poll

No, 3 inches of blanket and then the stucco.

Thanks for the advice!

Phil

[philiph4@ameritech.net]

Re: Refractory Mortar Poll

By the way, I sent an e-mail to plibrico to get a curing schedule and to ask if it will be water proof after the curing process. I will let you know what they say.

[ThisOldGarageNJ]

Re: Refractory Mortar Poll

phillip,,
Im in agreeance with lars lay the blanket over it and light the fire from hell,, If it cures by heat that should do it,, You can lift the blanket every once in a while to keep an eye on things,, the blanket should also let some of the moisture escape... Be careful though the blanket/steam will be HOTTT

Mark

[philiph4@ameritech.net]

Re: Refractory Mortar Poll

So the choice is to fire the hell out of it or bring it up slowly. What are the risks of going right to a towering inferno? I have a lot invested here and I don't want another Chernobyl on my hands.

Phil

[Lars]

Re: Refractory Mortar Poll

Phil,
Those are not exactly black and white options. You just need to judge for yourself. I developed several cracks while curing my oven. Right on the arch in front! You know what, they don't even open up anymore... and they closed up to the point where you would never notice them... they are hard to find.

You can start slow, and I guarantee that soon you will be saying 'this is ridiculously slow... it's going to burn like hell eventually, come on!' , so you will step it up a bit.

The thing is, you don't really have that much moisture in your build. You want extremely high temp on you mortar. As high as you can get it. The mortar can take it, the bricks can take it.... If a crack does open up, it may even close up when cooled and may or may not open up again upon subsequent firings.

Just start slow, and get a feel for it.

L.