mello judith flour

[gt40]

I was able to pick up a 50Lb bag of the flour called Mello Judith flour




I know this is the flour used at my favorite pizza restaurant Pizza Mozza. Does anyone have any experience with this stuff? I am curious how it will compare to the Tipo OO flour I have been using. Both seem to have similar protein level around 11.8-12 % give or take.

Spec Sheet:

http://www.cooknaturally.com/support...ellojudith.pdf

FYI, 50lb bags at Restaurant Depot cost around $15.00. They even have bulk pizza boxes for cheap which I have been looking for as everyone wants to take pizza home when we have parties.

Anyone with experience with this stuff, please advise as well as any suggestions for a good air tight container for 50 LB quantities for flour. I don't want moths!

[texassourdough]

Re: mello judith flour

Mello Judith is a pretty good bread flour. I can't compare it to 00.

For storage I would recommend buying some 10 to 25 quart food storage containers and dividing it up among them. My 10 quart container holds about ten pounds. I find the tight food storage lids do a good job of stopping weevils but I do freeze the containers for longer storage for a few days to kill the bugs.

I think you will like the flour! Enjoy!
Jay

[gt40]

Re: mello judith flour

I am in the second day of my slow rise dough with the mello judith and mixed in the predough to the final dough in my recipe. It is different than the 00 - different feel. We have a pizza party tomorrow so it will be interesting to compare the two.

Here is the recipe:
http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f10/...tml#post120258

I made no changes except for substituting the OO flour for the mellow flour. Handling it seems a tad stronger so far.

[gt40]

Re: mello judith flour

Update, the Mello Judith flour was a success. This was the best batch of dough I have made so far, having gone through about 60 lbs of flour since I got the oven functional.

I think the biggest differences I have observed is the Mello Judith seems to be able to hold more water and is a little stronger and the Tipo OO is a tad more flexible. I wonder what an even higher hydration level with the mello judith would have done. It is an outstanding flour for pizza and I can see why Pizza Mozza apparently uses it.

[gt40]

Re: mello judith flour

I started a side by side comparison test to try and quantify the differences. Yesterday I made 2 batches of predough sponge- one with Antico Tipo OO Chef's flour and the other with Mello Judith. First I weighed out the water- 500g x2= 1000g total. I put it in one container and dissolved a total of 4g of yeast into the water. Added a teaspoon of malted barley syrup and stirred till the yeast and syrup were dissolved. I figured by making one batch and splitting it in half, both batchs would get the same barley syrup and yeast in the water. Next I weighed 500 g of each type of flour and mixed it one at the time with equal amounts of the water yeast syrup mixture so that I had two batches and put them in their own container. I measured everything out with a scale accurate to 10th of a gram and each container contains 500g flour, 500g water + the yeast and syrup that was dissolved in the water. I let them sit at room temp around 75 degrees for an hour and then let them slow ferment in the refrigerator for 24 hours and here is the result:



As you can see, the Mello Judith rose a lot more even though it had exactly the same amount of yeast, water, barley syrup for the same amount of time and temp.
I was surprised to see such a big difference under exactly the same conditions.

Protein level listed for Mello Judith: Protein 11.8 +/- 0.3%

Protein level on Forno Bravo: 11-12% and on Amazon: Protein content 11.5%

Both seem to be close on the protein levels.

[texassourdough]

Re: mello judith flour

Interesting results. There are more variables than you realize, however. Mellow Judith is malted so it probably has more malt for seems unlikely that the 00 is malted. Malt helps convert starch to sugar so you would be creating more sugar and therefore encouraging more active yeast and therefore more active fermentation in the Mello Judith flour. Protein will help too if the MJ actually has higher protein content (which on average it should but not necessarily in any specific case). The "lift" demonstrated by the MJ contributes to its being a good bread flour.

Thanks for the post!
Jay

[gt40]

Re: mello judith flour

Interesting results. There are more variables than you realize, however. Mellow Judith is malted so it probably has more malt for seems unlikely that the 00 is malted. Malt helps convert starch to sugar so you would be creating more sugar and therefore encouraging more active yeast and therefore more active fermentation in the Mello Judith flour. Protein will help too if the MJ actually has higher protein content (which on average it should but not necessarily in any specific case). The "lift" demonstrated by the MJ contributes to its being a good bread flour.

Thanks for the post!
Jay

I hadn't thought of the barley in the Mello Judith. I am still learning as I go. Thanks for the feedback!

After 24 hours cold ferment with the full dough in the refrigerator, here are the results:



Top of the OO flour showing some giant bubbles even though it didn't rise over all as much



Kinda of interesting the differences and giant bubbles in just the OO considering I dissolved the yeast into the water and split the water between the batches.

[texassourdough]

Re: mello judith flour

What was the time on the first set of photos? I read it as 24 hours of refrigeration but your followup photos say they are 24 hours of refrigeration? Obviously one is wrong...

Great experiment!

I don't think the big bubbles are significant. May just be the 00 is a little lower in gluten and leaked a bit and a "skin" on the surface held it in??

Keep going! Wish I could get Mello Judith! It has really good specs!
Jay

[gt40]

Re: mello judith flour

What was the time on the first set of photos? I read it as 24 hours of refrigeration but your followup photos say they are 24 hours of refrigeration? Obviously one is wrong...

Great experiment!

I don't think the big bubbles are significant. May just be the 00 is a little lower in gluten and leaked a bit and a "skin" on the surface held it in??

Keep going! Wish I could get Mello Judith! It has really good specs!
Jay

I mix the predough sponge the first evening and then let it ferment till the next evening or around 24 hours. Then I use it to make the final dough and let it ferment for another 24 hours. Then I let it get up to room temp and stretch and fold it after coating it with flour. Back in the frig for another day if i have a pizza party the next night or I freeze the whole thing if I want to keep it a bit.

Total fermentation time is around 72 hours or so with most in the refrigerator...

More pics from the stretch and fold/bagging-

Mello Judith batch:


Antico Tipo OO batch:


The Mello Judith rose more with both the predough and final dough and the OO seems to "flow" a bit more and was a little less sticky coming out of the proofing container.

Bagged:

[texassourdough]

Re: mello judith flour

OK, gotcha! (I think!) The first pics were the preferment and the second pics were the dough. Right?

72 hours is pushing the dough pretty hard on starch...It will be breaking down pretty quick thereafter and many consider dough distinctly on its way downhill after 72. It is individual taste, but...

Interesting!
Jay

[gt40]

Re: mello judith flour

OK, gotcha! (I think!) The first pics were the preferment and the second pics were the dough. Right?

72 hours is pushing the dough pretty hard on starch...It will be breaking down pretty quick thereafter and many consider dough distinctly on its way downhill after 72. It is individual taste, but...

Interesting!
Jay

You are correct, first pics were preferment and second set were the dough. Almost the entire cycle of fermentation is done refrigerated i.e. long cold fermentation and then the dough is allowed to go to room temp and turned out on fresh flour for a stretch and fold. At that point I use it or freeze it. The fresh flour incorporated during this process at 72 hours seems to strengthen it and give it another round of life and I am getting more flavors. I am still learning here though so any suggestions would be appreciated.

[texassourdough]

Re: mello judith flour

Ahhhhh!

Adding fresh flour will partially rejuvenate the protein and starch and thus the dough... The challenge for extended retard doughs is that the degradation of both starch and protein is driven by enzymes which are not affected by temp as much as the yeast. The degradation increases flavor but eventually has what most consider a negative impact on crust and crumb and texture. S&Fs can help as can a bit of flour but you are almost guaranteed in my experience to be overproofed (short of sugar and relatively short of CO2) The result will tend to be a pale (whitish, not the golden caramelized look of "properly" proofed dough) and with a somewhat strange toughish, chewy quality that I tend to associate with overproofed "runny" dough (from being overly broken down). (The latter is somewhat subtle and may not communicate right! it is IMO a bit weird!)(But it depends on how far OVER it is!

Thanks!
Jay

[gt40]

Re: mello judith flour

Ahhhhh!

Adding fresh flour will partially rejuvenate the protein and starch and thus the dough... The challenge for extended retard doughs is that the degradation of both starch and protein is driven by enzymes which are not affected by temp as much as the yeast. The degradation increases flavor but eventually has what most consider a negative impact on crust and crumb and texture. S&Fs can help as can a bit of flour but you are almost guaranteed in my experience to be overproofed (short of sugar and relatively short of CO2) The result will tend to be a pale (whitish, not the golden caramelized look of "properly" proofed dough) and with a somewhat strange toughish, chewy quality that I tend to associate with overproofed "runny" dough (from being overly broken down). (The latter is somewhat subtle and may not communicate right! it is IMO a bit weird!)(But it depends on how far OVER it is!

Thanks!
Jay

Interesting. Back in April, I started adding some malted barley syrup to the predough and a bit of honey to the actual dough after seeing this post:

Experiment - Effect of retarding 0 days, 1, 2 and 3. [Picture included] | The Fresh Loaf

This was before the wfo oven was built and in a 500 degree home oven, it made a difference.



Recent baking my recipe in the WFO causes massive oven spring where it is downright spherical(I need to take a pic of this) with good elongated holes and crust is crackly so I am confused. I guess I will try shortening the retardation a bit.

[texassourdough]

Re: mello judith flour

First comment is that the color on those loaves is nice. Still has sugar which is evident in the caremalized golden color.

WRT retarding I would suggest doing a comparison by doing two batches two days apart so you have one loaves with three days retard and others with one day. Bake them together at the same time and see the difference... You may decide you distinctly prefer one or the other - or perhaps think something between would be preferable.

If the loaves are coming out "round" the skin of your loaf is not allowing expansion. It either got too dry during proofing (in my experience will usually show by not being golden - on the grayish/brown side), or the oven is too dry (likely if you are only doing a couple of loaves and are note heavily humidifying the oven - similar color problem), or you aren't slashing the loaves - or not adequately) to create weak points for the loaves to expand. Unslashed loaves are traditionally dimpled with fingers sort of like focaccia to create room for expansion. Traditional Pane Pugliesi is a good example. Show us some pics!

[gt40]

Re: mello judith flour

I tried shortening the retard time and everyone likes the longer one. I also found amazing improvment in my dough by making the predough per recipe with Mello Judith and then the final dough with half Mello Judith and half Caputo OO. It increased the extensibility and I am getting perfect combo of chewy and crackly crust.