caputo flour report

[Burntroof ofmouth]

From what i learned , the same recipe done in two diffent places in the world, cooked at the same heat will still result result in two diffent tasting pies. Something that seems so easy or basic can result in so many many varations.

[james]

Tom,

First, thanks for all your input. Excellent and very useful.

I think at the core, you are touching a something very fundamental. Great pizza ins't complicated, but it takes some basics. A few ingredients -- a brick oven, Italian pizza flour, great tomatoes and great olive oil, plus good methods -- oven management, dough prep, dough handling, pizza prep. It isn't like singing Opera or playing world-class tennis (although Mike, who took classes from Enzo in Naples and at the VPN restaurant in LA, says throwing a great pizza base is as hard as hitting a great topspin backhand). It's something we all can learn.

There does seem to be some room for variation -- within the general guidelines of Italian pizza (or even VPN). How much yeast; fresh or freeze dried yeast; hydration plus or minus a few %; olive oil in the dough; bulk fermenting overnight or in the morning; making dough balls early and putting them in the refrigerator or putting them out to rest first thing are all smaller things that everyone seems to do differently.

Heck, I've talk with many Italian pizzaiolos and asked them each of those questions, and I get a different answer each time -- including different VPN pizzerias in Naples.

The good news is that before forums like this existed, you could put in years of experimenting and not be sure what you were doing. Now, we can all share from each other's experience, and collectively push the ball forward. Not all of us have a friend who was a Naples trained pizzaiolo.

There is only one fixed rule. Don't use a rolling pin.

Saluti,
James

[tgm]

Fio,

I have read all the info I could glean prior to setting out on this wood fired pizza adventure and I was boggled at all the info on percentages, hydration levels etc. I figured I would learn from a master who has done this all his life from Naples to the US, so how could I go wrong? We have a simple recipe that is as basic as it gets that he had learned in school in Naples and has used all his life. We are following it to the letter and our pizzas come out perfect every time and they are as good as his. We mix the ingredients by hand, let rest slightly, knead for 17-20 min and then form our 9.5oz balls. After 3-4 hours at room temp it forms flawlessly, holds its shape and makes what we consider the perfect pizza. Our guests over the last 3 weeks have raved about the crust and we have had not one negative comment.
Why do I see all the recipe variations in both qty and times for various doughs??
Great forum by the way,

Thanks,

Tom in PA

[Fio]

You probably know this already, but. . . .

I guress we are pushing the edge of the envelope here. I have been able to get that high hydration and still have the dough ball hold together to throwing -- but it's right on the edge. You can try letting the dough sit for 5-10 minutes after everything is mixed, before you start kneading. It let's the dough hydrate.

You might want to cut back on the water -- but only a little. A previous version of the recipe called for 1 1/2, plus 2 tblspoons of water, but I thought there was room for a sckosh more water. But definitely the dough ball should form a ball, and not be a puddle.

Now that I have a scale, I am going to experiment with percentages, which will be more accurate. I did a 64-65% hydration earlier, and it held together nicely.

Fun, fun.
James

On pizzamaking.com, there is a vast treasure trove of good information and discussion about hydration levels, autolysis, dough retardation, etc. There is even a really nifty spreadsheet for calculating dough formulas for any size pizza (NY style dough, that is. . . )

I have found that my usual 63% hydration is too wet for the humidity outdoors these days. My most recent pies were 60% and worked great.

Yes - a tiny 3% difference makes quite an impact.

[arevalo53anos]

Tom, James:



I use to use pre ferment (natural leavened dough) in the pizzas dough, this gives a different and excellent taste to it.

However, I used IDY as long as cake yeast in the dough, too.

The quantities of IDY could vary strongly when referred to a dough management.

When using a polish or when the dough is lefted resting in the refrigerator, the IDY quantities could down as little as a pinch between two fingers.

Tom, could you, please, clarify your explanation about your pizza management (how much time of knead/mix, resting, shaping, proving, filling and baking)?



Thanks

Luis

[tgm]

Tom,

The yeast weight is correct and we do weigh it. Not a misprint, only 3g for 1.75kilos of flour.
We learned this recipe from a master pizza maker from Naples who has two shops in the Pittsburgh area. We took lessons from him and we are using his recipe for the dough, which as I say always comes out fantastic....and we are raw amateurs only having made dough for the last three weeks, never before.
If we can do it, anyone can.
Let me know how it turns out.

Tom in PA

[firepie]

Wow, only 3g!

for 1750g of flour?

If that is true, that means your yeast is 0.17%, or less that 1/10th of the formulas I usually see, which is 60,2,2 where water is 60% of flour wgt, salt is 2% of flour wgt, and yeast is 2% of flour wgt

so if you started with 1750g of flour I would have thought the yeast would be 35g. so I'm amazed at only 3g - am I missing something? When you say "g" your meaning grams - right? so I'm assuming your being pretty precise (like with a scale, not eyeballing it)

So now you got me really curious, I'm going to have to try it with the yeast cut way back like that.

Always willing to try a new formula, and this really caught my attention.

Tom in IA

[tgm]

We are using 1.75 kilos of Caputo for a batch and that yields approx. ten 9.5oz dough balls. Works perfect everytime.
James,
How do you use 10g of yeast for 500g of flour?? Is this a mis-print?? We are using 3g of fresh yeast for 1750g of flour and it's a perfect crust always. I can't imagine what that much yeast would do to my recipe.
I read in the forum that Caputo is difficult to work with and I can't see why. We just had a reunion a few weeks ago and we went thru a 50lb of Caputo 00, all mixed and kneaded by hand. We had absolutely no failures and all the pizza got eaten, save a few test pizzas as were learning.
Good forum guys, I have learned alot.

Tom in PA

[james]

I divide a dough batch with 500g flour into four balls. I am hydrating the dough to 65%, which is 325g water, plus about 10g salt and 10g yeast (about 2 tsp each). That makes four dough balls of about 210g, which is within the VPN specification of 180g-250g dough balls.

The big bag is 25Kg, which makes 50 500g batches, or roughly 200 pizzas a bag.

Make sense?

Basically, this is the same math as Tom, but in grams, not pounds.
James

[firepie]

Is ths like how many programmers does it take to change a light bulb (answer: none - it's hardware issue).

The formula I use for my dough, starts with 1 pound of flour and yields 4 10-12" pizzas. So my guess would be 220 pizzas - That will be one big pizza party.

I have no personal experience with this flour so other that do have experience with it should speak up.

Tom

[Jay]

Caputo 55kg bag

I'm curious to know approx. how many 10"-12" Neapolitan pizza doughs a 55lb. bag of Caputo Flour will make? Anyone have a clue??

[CanuckJim]

Dough Retardation

Richard,

I have retarded dough for up to three days without a problem. Most of the books say this is okay. Beyond that limit, I'd freeze it.

Jim

[Richard]

I currently retard my dough in refrigerator for a day. Is they're a maximum number od adys you can keep it in the fridge? Would like to able to store for 3 days (or more) rather than freezing.

[james]

One more thing

Back to Luis's comment, I agree that chilling your dough can give it more time to develop and improve the texture and flavor. You can even do the "ice water" technique and get the dough right into the refrigerator for atleast 24 hours.
James

[james]

You can go drier and not loose the extensibility. Just don't go dry to dry sake. The flour can go "really" (that's a technical term) far without tearing -- I have seen pro's do some great work with it.
James