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  • tombomb
    replied
    Re: caputo flour report

    i agree with less water but would add use the cold water tedhniqueand try holding in frig for 24 to 48 hrs. this seems to be my best trick. some of my best doughs are up to a week old. note i do not use any oil. be well

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  • KEmerson
    replied
    Re: caputo flour report

    Originally posted by james View Post

    The pizzaiolo recipe sounds like a sourdough that they are passing along. Sounds good.
    I don't know that it qualifies as a sourdough per se, but I do a slow ferment of a simple starter, then a slow ferment of the dough itself. My starter is simply four, water, ADY, and diastatic malt which I make myself. I let this sit in my basement for at least 24-36 hrs., then set to making the dough with an autolyse of about 20-25 minutes, and another slow ferment back in the basement for another 24-36 hrs. This plus the higher hydration than I had been doing (very low back then. Now about 65%-58% w/ King Arthur AP) and a FB stone on the bottom (floor, not rack) of my gas oven cranked up to 550? F, pre-heated for about one hour has all made a huge difference to the better - way better. As James pointed out somewhere, this isn't rocket science but it takes practice, diligence and the help of a place like this. I spent years working this out on my own. I think it was Savarin who said, possibly of bechamel, that what is interesting is that all it is is milk, butter and flour but it will take a lifetime to perfect. Ok, so maybe it was Hollandaise. Not sure. Either way, damned few ingredients, fairly simple method, yet perfection does not always await.

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  • james
    replied
    Re: caputo flour report

    Ciao Mavano,

    I think it would be great to be a master baker and have the feel to bake completely by touch -- not scale. But I'm sure not there. The more I bake the more I am getting a feel, but I have a long way to go.

    For focaccia, I add EVO to the baking sheet, on top of the dough, and then more right when the bread comes out of the oven. I learned that at a WFO cooking class in Fiesole. But no EVO in the dough -- I think it retards a good oven spring.

    The pizzaiolo recipe sounds like a sourdough that they are passing along. Sounds good.

    La mamma reminds me of a story. There was a flier in the local market in Bagno a Ripoli, where someone was selling their entire Vin Santo making kit. Bottles, barrels, everything. Our younger daughter was translating it out loud and she said wow -- the barrels come with the mother inside! Vin Santo also has la mamma.

    Salute,
    James

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  • MAVANO
    replied
    Re: caputo flour report

    yes James my wife makes a great focaccia with very high hydration it turns out great she does not measure the water she adds water until the feel of the mix is right to her I always tell her to write down how much water is put in she only responds, this the way my mother taught me, but she does measure the flour 4lb.- salt 1tblsp -ady 1tblsp. mixes it in a large bowl with a spatula and pours it in a focaccia black steel 2 inch deep pan with the rippled edges that we brought back from Italy on our last visit, lets it rise for 2-3 hrs. olive oil on top (must put a little oil in pan before the mix) crushed diced tomatoes on top a little oregano -BTW the toppings are done after the rise- and bake at 450oven or WFO until the desired crispness, by the way that gtm member is very close to the amount of yeast 3 grms per 1.75k of flour, they did not specify salt or water amounts, my brother in Italy tells me he spoke to a pizzaiolo and told him that he does not use yeast in his dough but rather white wine in the biga mix ( they call it la mamma) that has not been treated with any yeast neutralizers ,( I'm guessing freshly squeezed grapes) lets it rise for 6-8 hrs. is this possible? he would not give the specifics on the amounts of ingredients very well kept secrets out there.

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  • KEmerson
    replied
    Re: caputo flour report

    Originally posted by james View Post
    I've been making my focaccia with 90% hydration recently roughly following a Cook's Illustrated article. At that point it's barely dough; more like batter. But the focaccia comes out great. Olive oil keeps everything from sticking.

    James
    Yeah, with focaccia the hydration is off the charts compared with pizza. I also used quite a bit of olive oil in it. Handling it was like handling that kid's stuff, what's it called, Slime? Slippery, unmanageable, a mind of its own. I laughed almost every time I was learning just because of the dough's seeming independence. But I wasn't always laughing.

    I'm gathering from what I'm reading here that to a certain extent we could say "wetter is better". I have half a mind to go ballistic once and up the % by leaps - just for kicks and experimentation. Rather than play with 63%. 63%, 65%, I'm going to head straight for... Oh I don't know yet. I just thought of this as I was typing it. 75%, why not? Has anyone tried such an experiment? There's no way this is original.

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  • james
    replied
    Re: caputo flour report

    Originally posted by kimemerson View Post
    I used t work at a small artisanal bakery where we made foccacia that was so wet it took me about two weeks to learn how to handle. We used food handling gloves coated in olive oil and had to keep the hands moving & forming constantly.
    I've been making my focaccia with 90% hydration recently roughly following a Cook's Illustrated article. At that point it's barely dough; more like batter. But the focaccia comes out great. Olive oil keeps everything from sticking.

    James

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  • wlively
    replied
    Re: caputo flour report

    I agree on the wetter dough. I have tried recipes from the foodtv chefs to Forno Bravo to an old Italian (1965) book. I have found that brick ovens like the wetter doughs.

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  • KEmerson
    replied
    Re: caputo flour report

    Originally posted by dmun View Post
    If you have the skill to handle wetter doughs, I think you will get good results, particularly good oven spring.
    I used t work at a small artisanal bakery where we made foccacia that was so wet it took me about two weeks to learn how to handle. We used food handling gloves coated in olive oil and had to keep the hands moving & forming constantly. So handling very wet dough is not so much a challenge to me. I also have no need or desire to toss dough as I figure the ability to toss must come about with a relatively dryer dough, and if wet is the aim, then dry must be the antithesis, thereby meaning that tossing (in the American sense) means something is not meeting goals.

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  • dmun
    replied
    Re: caputo flour report

    I'm comfortable with 65 percent. Much more and I have to use a mess of bench flour to get the dough from sticking to everything. If you have the skill to handle wetter doughs, I think you will get good results, particularly good oven spring.

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  • j6ppc
    replied
    Re: caputo flour report

    Originally posted by Richard View Post
    I currently retard my dough in refrigerator for a day. Is they're a maximum number od adys you can keep it in the fridge? Would like to able to store for 3 days (or more) rather than freezing.
    I typically make a 65% dough using 1 kg flour once a week. Some ends up as pizza, the rest becomes baguette, boule or whatever. Holds fine for up to a week. It would probably keep longer but ours is always used up within a week.

    Originally posted by Burntroof ofmouth View Post
    Could my tap water in new york or my, humidity in air have anything to do with my caputo flour not coming out well. was very sticky couldn't really work with it needed to add flour to knead
    Ambient humidity, temperature and the moisture content of a given batch of flour all play a role. Generally better to undershoot your water adding more as needed to obtain your desired texture.

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  • KEmerson
    replied
    Re: caputo flour report

    With all else being equal, what's the harm in going higher in hydration? Suppose going to 70% as opposed to 65%, and that the flour holds ok. Provided one is happy with the handling, stretch, dryness (or lack of) etc,, then what difference will merely higher hydration make on the baked pizza? What's the breakdown point in % difference? In other words, is a difference of 5% more or less a lot? If not, when does it make a difference? At 6%? 7%? How delicate is a % difference?
    Does a higher hydration at first only affect one's ability to handle a wet dough? I understand that a finer flour has a higher absorption rate over heavier flours, but that aside, just what harm - if any - comes from over hydration?
    I have been using KA AP @ 68% and it handles great. The baked results aren't so bad either, without being a 00. I have wondered if I could go higher and what difference it would make in the oven and on the plate. Mind you, I am not going to stay with KA AP, but it's what I have been able to get for a while. I have yet to try Caputo Rosso (just got a 2.2# today from the local fish shop. They also carry the blue.) I have used Delverde and Bel Aria but I cannot remember what my hydration % was.

    This is one brilliant site! My thanks to all the enthusiasm, to James' travels and apparent intense devotion.

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  • Burntroof ofmouth
    replied
    Re: caputo flour report

    Could my tap water in new york or my, humidity in air have anything to do with my caputo flour not coming out well. was very sticky couldnt really work with it needed to add flour to nead

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  • anthony2173
    replied
    Re: caputo flour report

    I'm a newbie to this forum and just wanted to thank everyone for the information I was able to pick up regarding the use of this flour.

    I have a 25kg bag on the way and am certain this information will lend to great results.
    Last edited by anthony2173; 10-14-2008, 10:08 AM.

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  • james
    replied
    Re: caputo flour report

    One more thing. I find that baking in grams really helps. Everything is based on percentage of 100, which is so easy to follow. When you are making a lot of bread, speed counts.
    James

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  • james
    replied
    Re: caputo flour report

    Here is the scale. It's called the Escali Primo, in Chrome. I will contact their rep again, and let you know when we have them in inventory and in the store. On this type of item, we just charge the retail price, and we get a discount from the producer.

    More to come.
    James

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