Crust issues

[BrianShaw]

Re: Crust issues

Bingo!
And as an added benefit, you can put away your million dollar mixer, cold retardation makes everything smooth as silk.

I couldn't agree more, but I need to keep the mixer handy because slow retardation requires pre-planning... which is a challenge for some of us impulsive Type-A personalities!

[dmun]

Re: Crust issues

That said, I discovered that my lumpy, chunky balled doughs, relax thru a long and slow fermentation and turn silk and "happy" on their own now.

Bingo!
And as an added benefit, you can put away your million dollar mixer, cold retardation makes everything smooth as silk.

[Tscarborough]

Re: Crust issues

I don't do any testing, much less one to see how thin my dough is, I just makes 'de dough and beats into something like a circle. But then, I don't weigh ingredients and seldom make the same thing twice. Eye and taste is better than recipe.

Edit- Semolina burns, but it has no flavor when it does so.

[Dino_Pizza]

Re: Crust issues

Bob,
I agree with splatgirl about the oil. My pizza dough sees no oil until I form them into the final small balls and then, it's only PAM with the lightest spritz on bottom (I try for sides and it's mostly bottom) of small zip-lock tupperware type containers. I don't find I need any oil for initial or "ball fermentation" and I think that's because I use a fairly 'wet' (high hydration) dough, oil is just not necessary at that point.

But...as a relative newbie...I HATE THE WINDOW PANE TEST. Never have done it well, never have 'passed' the test. I truly hope it's living in an arid desert like SoCal and not that the Gods of Baking have cursed me. That said, I discovered that my lumpy, chunky balled doughs, relax thru a long and slow fermentation and turn silk and "happy" on their own now.

Jeffrey Hamelman's "Bread a bakers book of techniques and recipes" really helped me understand how gluten can form with my incomplete or less-than-perfect initial mixing and that the final product is a wonderfully silky dough that me and my KA, kitchen aid, mixer could never get on our own.

It's a wonderful learning process and in the next few weeks, I'll test myself to see if I can slide a pie off a wood peel with semolina instead of rice flour (and not get burnt 'popcorn' dust all over my oven...(thanks Jay: you've reminded me that cooking as all about discovering the new or the old, whatever makes it work better or taste good .
-Dino

[bobframe]

Re: Crust issues

Jay,

I enjoy your posts...thanks for taking the time to expand on your thoughts. I have yet to make a pie that I wouldn't eat- isn't that the point?

To your point, I find that whenever I attempt to learn how to do something there's no better approach than to simply "do it" a bunch of times. The fine points suddenly begin to make sense and I quickly develop my own style. Fun stuff.

The boys are home from school for Sunday dinner...take a guess what's on the menu?

[Tscarborough]

Re: Crust issues

I made a skateboard shape last night, but it was OK, I just made it pepperoni and fed it to the kids.

[texassourdough]

Re: Crust issues

Hi bobf!

Sounds like wet is not the issue - oil can definitely be.

It is fine to use convection for heating the oven. The moving air accelerates the heating of the stone. But switch it to bake when you are ready to bake. That way the stone and air will be at the same temp. The top will still cook faster as a result of the heating elements but it will be more balanced.

Splatg's suggestion of using parchment is good. As she also says, if you can handle it it is okay! Don't be afraid of overstretching it or ripping... You can still make pies from late balled bread flour. It is more that it will fight you and you may need to let it rest in the forming process so it won't shrink back to the original size. One of the nice things about wetter doughs is they relax faster so...

If you really want to have some fun, take some NeoNeopolitan dough and make a pie. Work it as thin as you can. Don't worry about tears or anything else. Then try to ball it back up and make a new pie. Even an hour or two later it will be VERY resistant to anything you want to do to it. It will act a lot like a piece of rubber (exagerrated but....)

A lot of this simply comes down to experience and learning the "touch" of things. And different ones of us like different dough consistencies. I make fairly round pies from really soft dough, but I occasionally blow it and make a pie more like Maine or Connecticut (which I actually like because they are clearly not commercial cardboard!)

Don't sweat the details too much. Just keep making pies. The details will make sense and come into alignment with time and practice!

Hang in there!
Jay

[splatgirl]

Re: Crust issues

It's just an easy visual test for adequate gluten development if you're not sure. Once you have more hands-on time, you'll know a dough is right just by look and feel.

[bobframe]

Re: Crust issues

I am aware of the windowpane test...but have yet to successfully execute it. I sorta tried it this morning as I mixed up my "Sunday dough". But I really didnt feel like I succeeded at it.

Good thing to learn to do??

Note taking...good idea.

[splatgirl]

Re: Crust issues

Yep. Don't be afraid to err on the side of overworking at the mixing/kneading stage when you're just learning. It's a great way to get a feel for what's what, and even if you end up with tough dough at least you'll know whereas without having seen and done it, you'd have no idea. You've seen/done the windowpane test, yes?

I've always found it's helpful to take notes on the process to really tease out the ideal process for your recipe, ingredients and technique.

[bobframe]

Re: Crust issues

.
A properly developed dough will stretch to absolute tissue paper thinness without tearing. Assuming you've got good gluten development, you just need more practice.

I have never experienced this...it is now an objective.

I saw a picture on someone's forum of some dough that was stretched thin enough to be able to read a flour bag's directions through it. Wow.

[splatgirl]

Re: Crust issues

If you can handle it and make it into a pie like that, it's not too wet. The flouring bit will come with practice, but an oily dough ball is no good. I use cooking spray and just a little bit at that. By the time my dough blobs are ready to be shaped and I dump them out onto the flour, you can't tell the containers were ever even sprayed and the dough is definitely not oily on the surface.
Parchment paper is a great thing for the indoor oven if you are getting hung up on the transferring bit. I won't discourage you from honing your skills with flouring JUST enough to shape and then be able to transfer a pie, but for experimentation purposes, there is no shame in shaping on lightly floured parchment and then putting the whole thing onto the stone on the paper. You can either leave it or pull it after a couple of minutes.
A properly developed dough will stretch to absolute tissue paper thinness without tearing. Assuming you've got good gluten development, you just need more practice.

[bobframe]

Re: Crust issues

Gulp...that's a lot to process. Let me pick a couple of things that I think I can process.

Starting at the end- I did use convection all the way through, which may have sped up the top cooking at the expense of the crust's browning. Makes sense to me. Solution: Stop using convection? BTW, I was using Convection Bake mode. I think this means that only the bottom burner is active (plus the fans). Wouldn't Roast mode be a better choice as (I think) that employs the bottom and top (broiler) elements?

I wonder if using too much oil on the dough is encouraging flour to stick and that is at the root of my flour problem? Before I try to form my next crusts I will attempt to wipe all of the oil off the dough. In hindsight, I really did over oil the dough. Oh well.

It is hard for me to accept that my dough is too wet. I think it is just the opposite. Now, am I "afraid" of it? Could easily be the case...I am worried about overstretching and ripping the dough as I form the crust.

[texassourdough]

Re: Crust issues

Hi bob(frame)!

I need to jump back a ways. Your "complaint" of too much uncooked flour on the bottom of the pie is troublesome. Something is wrong - you shouldn't need to have a lot of flour on the dough. The excess SHOULD come off. So...I will carry you through a LONG description covering both the mixing/balling and the forming...

For a start, I think you are either using dough too wet or dough that you are "afraid" of (and thereby getting in trouble). As I recall your first dough was Neopolitan which is usually pretty soft and fragile and at hydration above 60% begins to pose handling problems for newbies. (And if you are in the 65% range it can seem impossible though there are a number of us on here who in person would simply smile at your frustration and make it happen). It has a lot to do with experience and it is hard to shortcut the process.

Neopolitan dough is in Reinhart's book balled after the bulk ferment. It will be very relaxed after the retard in the fridge. The low protein of AP allows it to relax pretty quickly so the balls will relax during the 2 hour warm up and expansion and be ready for forming pies at that time.

The reason I and others say to go NeoNeopolitan is that the NeoNeo dough uses bread flour which has more protein and can remain "manageable" at higher hydrations. (for the same hydration it gives a stiffer (seemingly dryer and less sticky dough). This makes it easier for newbies to deal with. (And, I prefer it for lots of pizzas - there are some I prefer Neopolitan for and others NeoNeo (in particular wetter pizzas - the increased protein gives the crust better ability to maintain "bite" and structure).

In either case, if you make a batch of dough and you can't handle it gracefully, reduce the water for the next batch. It seems like 60% hydration AP/Neopolitan dough is reasonably handleable by most people and say 64-65 % bread/NeoNeo dough.

Now...bread flour has more protein. It gets tougher and has longer memory. It doesn't relax quickly. As a result Reinhart has you ball the NeoNeo dough about 20 minutes after you finish mixing. (Note: timing at this point is not critical, fifteen minutes or 30 minutes no big deal. If you let it sit out an hour it will tend to be overpoofed later. Still no big deal. But form the balls before you put it in the fridge for the retard. (Reinhart says to put them in baggies. I put mine in dough pans (big plastic lidded rectangular boxes), others use round food storage containers. Of these choices the baggies seem to need the most oil and I don't want a lot of excess oil because it encourages excess flour at forming)).

If you wait until after the retard to divide and ball the NeoNeo it will get firm and tough and it will not be fully relaxed in two hours so it will fight you when you try to form the pies. And it will give a tougher pie. The relaxed, pre-balled dough is much more similar to the straight Neo - still more bite and mouthfeel but not nearly so tough.

NOTE: A number of us feel that Caputo 00 is similar to bread in that IMO it does not like to be worked late. It isn't as troublesome to me as bread flour but I definitely prefer to ball it before the retard.

And finally... to pie formation. Once the dough is warm and relaxed and soft it is ready to form the pie! There are a zillion ways to do this and you will eventually come up with your own variation but this works well and will allow you to make relatively round pies out of doughs you probably can't handle on a counter or just with your hands.

Take a sheet pan or jelly roll pan and put a cup or so of flour in the pan and spread it around. Put the dough ball on the loose flour and flatten it to about half its height. Flip it over to flour the other side and gently press it down to about half that height. It will probably be five or six inches in diameter and about an inch tall.

Beginning near the center begin using your finger tips to press the dough down and spread the dough. Use both hands. There are pretty decent videos of this part. As soon as the center is down to say half an inch start working farther out and get the outer portion and cornicione to the thickness you want. Then go back to the middle and thin down the center and work your way out to the edge again. Note: It can be done quickly faster than I can write it... The key is don't thin the center first or you will get a pie that is unevenly thin. By forming a "flattened" spaceship form with a low dome in the center and then finishing the pie you can get airy, thin, more uniform pies.

At that point put semolina (I am NOT a rice flour fan! YUCK! GRITTY!) on the peel. I then put the pie on one hand and spin/slap it from one hand to the other and back to knock off the excess flour (and there should be very little left) and immediately put the pie on the peel. (I find wood is preferable over aluminum for putting pies in the oven - less sticking problems (but that is also that developed better technique after I quit using aluminum!)

Dress the pie. Pop in the oven and....

One last comment.... Your picture of your pie raises a couple of questions. The top definitely looks more done than the bottom but you say you heated for 75 minute so the pie should have been more uniform. Two possibilities that I can see. First is the flour on the bottom is misleading me OR you kept the oven on convection and the top was too hot relative to the stone. The second issue is that the pie (top) is IMO still undercooked. You could have gone at least another 30 seconds and probably a minute or more longer. And that would have helped the bottom too.

Good Luck!
Jay

[BrianShaw]

Re: Crust issues

Brian,

I am interested in this "screen" approach. Can you describe the screen in more detail? Pictures?

Thanks a bunch.

Pizza Screen, Pizza Screens screen

This is one of the few times when I'll actually say, "I really recommend using this source; They have served me well over and over and over again!" You might be able to find them in a local restaurant supply store and save the hassle of shipping.

p.s. for Dino: Star Restaurant Supply on Sepulveda... walk to the back, past the counter into the baking supplies. On the rack to your left. I also like having a supply of those aluminum pizza trays.