Yellow Dough???????

[splatgirl]

Re: Yellow Dough???????

Not to hijack, but could you please elaborate on the expansion ratio/rise time vs. % starter, Jay? I gather that you gauge rise time based on the % of starter in the final dough? VERY interesting and not something I have ever seen discussed before...

[texassourdough]

Re: Yellow Dough???????

Rising time to a given expansion is a function of how much yeast starts off in the dough and the temperature (and yes a bunch of other things like hydration, salt, etc. but we will treat them as a constant for this discussion).

Sourdough yeast is much less robust in actiivity than commercial yeast so you need more of it to get a reasonable rise and rise rate. Getting a good rise involves making CO2 and other gases and volatiles (like alcohol) faster than they are escaping. (someone recently mentioned water vapor but it is only a very minor contributor for it doesn't gasify substantially until 212 is reached and your dough and crumb sets at around 180.)

One of the reasons you want to bake bread before it peaks is that peaking coincides with the rate of CO2 generation equalling the leakage or loss rate. But it is a bit more complex than that for CO2 is both dissolved in the dough and in the bubbles. Oven spring occurs by both release of CO2 (and volatile alcohols) from the dough into the bubbles and by heat expansion of the gas in the bubbles. (Gases are lesss soluble in water as temperature rises). The state of rise is a dynamic balance between the generation of CO2 in the dough and its leakage from the dough into the bubbles and from the bubbles and dough out of the loaf. When you handle, score and give ten minuetes or so for the crust to set, a lot of gas will have leaked out of the bread - so if it was peaking it comes out flat. So you want to bake at about 1 2/3 doubled instead of doubled.

Part of this is because sourdough is not as robust as commercial - it won't generate CO2 as rapidly so it has a harder time expanding the loaf to doubled with enough oomph to survive the handling and such.

The above does not really address your question but sets the stage for answering the question of sourdough dose and rising time... Because I am going to talk about peaking time - for that is "cleaner" and more definable than loaf proofing time (which follows a similar logic).

My starter is 100% hydration - equal weights of water and flour. If I expand it 4X (i.e. add 200 grams of water and 200 grams of flour to 100 grams of starter) it will peak at about 13 hours at a temperature of about 72 to 74. Peaking is when the foamy starter has maximum expansion. It is still rising if it has a dome in the center. When it is slightly past peak the center of the dome will be depressed. If it is well past peak the top surface will be concave and/or the side of the expansion jar will show a line where the starter peaked.

Now...if the temperature is 65 I find it takes up to 18 hours for the starter to peak (and have maximum actiivty and thereby yeast content). That is too long to be convenient so I drop my expansion ratio to 3X (i.e. add 150 grams of water and 150 of flour to 100 grams of starter). The yeast will start with a higher concentration and will get the leaven to peak at about 13 hours again. If it were really hot - say 78 or 80 I might use a 5X or 6X expansion to get a similar peaking time.

The reason for being concerned with peaking time is that IF the leaven is early or past peak it won't have maximum activity and your proofing times will need to be extended (and how much is always a question) and consistency becomes a challenge.

As a result, making sourdough by "rote" (a fixed time and formula) may work in a location with very consistent temperature and humidity, but... most kitchens in my experience are not and therefore the time and formula need adjustment.

Having longer proof times is a problem because that indicates the yeast is not as active and therefore struggling to lift the dough and having a harder time getting enough gas to give a good loaf. (It will tend to be dense and chewy and heavy).

Hope that was useful!
Jay

[Pdiff]

Re: Yellow Dough???????



And that, Jay, is why we love you!! :-) Always something interesting to say!

Thanks, and thanks for asking the question, Splat.

Pdiff

[splatgirl]

Re: Yellow Dough???????

Wow. Thanks so much. Highly informative and helpful, as usual.
Unconsciously, I understood and work by this but as I said I've never seen it defined in such a clear manner.
I've never actually taken note of the time it takes my starter to get to peak for the purposes of predicting final proof time. Can I hear a duh!?! I guess I always assumed that the two couldn't be expected to be similar because there's more going on, ingredient and hydration-wise, in a final dough than a starter.

Presumably you are speaking here in terms of YOUR starter. Are you also saying that ANY healthy and nicely active starter would more or less roll with this schedule? I ask because I've noticed that Leader's recipes seem to call for (and adhere to) much shorter rise times than any other sourdough recipes I have used or seen. I've never understood why that is, because his technique is essentially the same. Is it the difference between a stiff dough starter (Leader) vs., say, Reinhardt's 100% starter based formulas?

[splatgirl]

Re: Yellow Dough???????

Or, in other words, if my starter peaks in 8 hours, can I expect my final dough proof/rise time to be close to the same?

[brokencookie]

Re: Yellow Dough???????

My wife likes a crunchy pizza. Since I have not yet gotten my "real" oven off the ground I have been making do with stones etc. In order to increase the crunch I use about 7% Semolina flour. This also makes the dough slightly yellow. I have found that 10% semolina makes the pizza tough so I always use less than 10%.


Bruce

[heliman]

Re: Yellow Dough???????

Thanks Bruce - very helpful info. Have loaded the 7% into the dough calculator and hope to make a batch later today (after I have bought some semilina flour). Excellent news that this is where the "yellowness" comes from. At last the secret has been revealed!! Do you have the complete recipe you use perhaps to put it all in perspective?

Good info also Jay - sourdough really is a science!! Is there a particular % of starter that you would recommend be added to pizza dough?

[heliman]

Re: Yellow Dough???????

The Games have begun...

Got some Durum Semolina flour and have mixed a batch of dough to try. All mixed and kneaded and leaving it to ferment at room temp to see how it turns out. Will check after an hr. So far only a slight off-white colour. Maybe needs more time to leach colouring from Semolina. Used very low hydration - 51% to mimic the bought texture. Used 45% starter (as per Reinhart) and did not include any IDY....

[heliman]

Re: Yellow Dough???????

UPDATE:
======

Undoubtedly one of the best - if not THE best dough that I have made. Silkiness like I have never been able to produce before, putty-like, crunch, golden baked colour and with just a perfect amount of rise. I have kept 2 x doughs back to test if they improve with time. I am sure they will. One thing that I know is that I will be developing this formula as my favourite pizza dough in future.

The sourdough provides the optimum amount of flavour and rise ... but the elusive "Yellowness" has not been explained. The 7% semolina suggested by Bruce seemed to be perfect and it provided an off-white colour but not to the level of the bought dough. I am reluctant to add more semolina at this stage but may experiment with different percentages later. I grabbed a pic which I will post shortly.

[heliman]

Re: Yellow Dough???????

Pic of pizza as promised...

Pic of the Durum Semolina too.

[david s]

Re: Yellow Dough???????

The two heaped tablespoons of semolina for every 4 cups of pizza flour recipe that I've been using, works out to be almost exactly the 7% that you arrived at.It produces a base that is light but a bit crunchy. We started doing this about 6 months ago and now always do it this way.

[heliman]

Re: Yellow Dough???????

What colour is your dough?

I am just wondering if the dough I bought is made of "old dough" that may have become yellow over time when it is added to the new batch of dough.

I don't think that the relatively small amount of semolina I am using is going to produce a dough that is as yellow as the bought one so something else must be causing this phenomenon.

As an aside, this is a recipe by Jamie Oliver which includes semolina flour. Similar to the one I made - but without the sugar.

Pizza Dough

This is a fantastic, reliable, everyday pizza dough, which can also be used to make bread. It's best made with Italian Tipo "00" flour, which is finer ground than normal flour, and it will give your dough an incredible super-smooth texture. Look for it in Italian markets and good supermarkets. If using white bread flour instead, make sure it's a strong one that's high in gluten, as this will transform into a lovely, elastic dough, which is what you want. Mix in some semolina flour for a bit of color and flavor if you like.

Ingredients
7 cups strong white bread flour or Tipo "00" flour or 5 cups strong white bread flour or Tipo "00" flour, plus 2 cups finely ground semolina flour
1 level tablespoon fine sea salt
2 (1/4-ounce) packets active dried yeast
1 tablespoon raw sugar
4 tablespoons extra-virgin olive oil
2 1/2 cups lukewarm water

Sift the flours and salt onto a clean work surface and make a well in the middle. In a large measuring cup, mix the yeast, sugar and olive oil into the water and leave for a few minutes, then pour into the well. Using a fork, bring the flour in gradually from the sides and swirl it into the liquid. Keep mixing, drawing larger amounts of flour in, and when it all starts to come together, work the rest of the flour in with your clean, flour-dusted hands. Knead until you have a smooth, springy dough.

Place the ball of dough in a large flour-dusted bowl and flour the top of it. Cover the bowl with a damp cloth and place in a warm room for about 1 hour until the dough has doubled in size.

Now remove the dough to a flour-dusted surface and knead it around a bit to push the air out with your hands - this is called punching down the dough. You can either use it immediately, or keep it, wrapped in plastic wrap, in the fridge (or freezer) until required. If using straightaway, divide the dough up into as many little balls as you want to make pizzas - this amount of dough is enough to make about six to eight medium pizzas.

Timing-wise, it's a good idea to roll the pizzas out about 15 to 20 minutes before you want to cook them. Don't roll them out and leave them hanging around for a few hours, though - if you are working in advance like this it's better to leave your dough, covered with plastic wrap, in the refrigerator. However, if you want to get them rolled out so there's 1 less thing to do when your guests are round, simply roll the dough out into rough circles, about 1/4-inch thick, and place them on slightly larger pieces of olive-oil-rubbed and flour-dusted aluminum foil. You can then stack the pizzas, cover them with plastic wrap, and pop them into the refrigerator.

[texassourdough]

Re: Yellow Dough???????

Hi Rossco!

The pizza sounds great. I may have to try using semolina. I usually only use of for pasta and for dusting the peel.

Way to go!
Jay

[texassourdough]

Re: Yellow Dough???????

Hi Splat!

We have taken a tangent from the yellow dough that probably deserves its own topic so it can be more concise.

In my experience and from what I hear almost all sourdoughs are similar to mine. There are supposedly some more robust strains - usually from Russia or the Middle East but I think the numbers I cited (which ARE based on my starter and experience) are pretty typical.

Don't kick yourself too hard. Sourdough is so damn variable (temp, humidity, flour, salt) (and I actually sometimes think yeast has moods!) that it is easy to not notice the patterns. I don't recall where I heard of shifting the expansion with temp but I don't think it is original. I have been doing it for about six years - mainly in the winter - and began after making bread that barely rose (too cold in the kitchen) (made hard giant hockey pucks). Yes, I know I could have used proofing box and all that but...I don't like to so....I just go with the temp I have and adapt. (And I do usually use a proofing box if the temp gets down to about 65. My yeast practically quits at that temp - never rise!)

WRT 8 hours to peak means 8 hours to proof. That is not my experience. My peak time for a 4X expansion is about 13 hours and I usually bake after about 7 to 10 hours after I make the final dough - about 3 to 4 hours from mixing to forming and about 4 to 5 hours to baking after forming. My forming time is usually fairly consistent. The proofing time can be pretty variable but I only let it grow by about 2/3 - not double.

I don't have Leaders book so I can't comment too much. Could be he has uniquely potent yeast. Could be he likes explosive loaves (underproofed loaves tend to explode a bit as a result of all the gas and alcohol in the dough that escapes as it bakes. It can't get out fast enough and the loaf "explodes".

Maybe I need to look at his book!

Good Luck!
Jay

[heliman]

Re: Yellow Dough???????

Hi Rossco!

The pizza sounds great. I may have to try using semolina. I usually only use of for pasta and for dusting the peel.

Way to go!
Jay

Hi Jay,

Yes it is certainly the best pizza dough I have made and worth trying yourself. The sourdough addition produces the perfect amount of rise, whereas my other doughs used to puff and tear within a few hrs of being on the bench. As a sourdough expert you will definitely be able to work on the best formula to use for maximum taste/rise for pizzas.

I did have to grapple with going "non-neo" buy I reasoned that the taste is the most important part of pizza so I need to do what I have to do to produce the best all round product. In this case, it's the addition of semolina. I reason too that if it's good enough for Brandi then it's....

I would like to hear your comments on the inclusion of this crispening addition once tested. Perhaps you will also declare "there's no going back" once you have sampled this delicious variation!!!