Yellow Dough???????

[heliman]

Re: Yellow Dough???????

Pic of pizza as promised...

Pic of the Durum Semolina too.

[heliman]

Re: Yellow Dough???????

UPDATE:
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Undoubtedly one of the best - if not THE best dough that I have made. Silkiness like I have never been able to produce before, putty-like, crunch, golden baked colour and with just a perfect amount of rise. I have kept 2 x doughs back to test if they improve with time. I am sure they will. One thing that I know is that I will be developing this formula as my favourite pizza dough in future.

The sourdough provides the optimum amount of flavour and rise ... but the elusive "Yellowness" has not been explained. The 7% semolina suggested by Bruce seemed to be perfect and it provided an off-white colour but not to the level of the bought dough. I am reluctant to add more semolina at this stage but may experiment with different percentages later. I grabbed a pic which I will post shortly.

[heliman]

Re: Yellow Dough???????

The Games have begun...

Got some Durum Semolina flour and have mixed a batch of dough to try. All mixed and kneaded and leaving it to ferment at room temp to see how it turns out. Will check after an hr. So far only a slight off-white colour. Maybe needs more time to leach colouring from Semolina. Used very low hydration - 51% to mimic the bought texture. Used 45% starter (as per Reinhart) and did not include any IDY....

[heliman]

Re: Yellow Dough???????

Thanks Bruce - very helpful info. Have loaded the 7% into the dough calculator and hope to make a batch later today (after I have bought some semilina flour). Excellent news that this is where the "yellowness" comes from. At last the secret has been revealed!! Do you have the complete recipe you use perhaps to put it all in perspective?

Good info also Jay - sourdough really is a science!! Is there a particular % of starter that you would recommend be added to pizza dough?

[brokencookie]

Re: Yellow Dough???????

My wife likes a crunchy pizza. Since I have not yet gotten my "real" oven off the ground I have been making do with stones etc. In order to increase the crunch I use about 7% Semolina flour. This also makes the dough slightly yellow. I have found that 10% semolina makes the pizza tough so I always use less than 10%.


Bruce

[splatgirl]

Re: Yellow Dough???????

Or, in other words, if my starter peaks in 8 hours, can I expect my final dough proof/rise time to be close to the same?

[splatgirl]

Re: Yellow Dough???????

Wow. Thanks so much. Highly informative and helpful, as usual.
Unconsciously, I understood and work by this but as I said I've never seen it defined in such a clear manner.
I've never actually taken note of the time it takes my starter to get to peak for the purposes of predicting final proof time. Can I hear a duh!?! I guess I always assumed that the two couldn't be expected to be similar because there's more going on, ingredient and hydration-wise, in a final dough than a starter.

Presumably you are speaking here in terms of YOUR starter. Are you also saying that ANY healthy and nicely active starter would more or less roll with this schedule? I ask because I've noticed that Leader's recipes seem to call for (and adhere to) much shorter rise times than any other sourdough recipes I have used or seen. I've never understood why that is, because his technique is essentially the same. Is it the difference between a stiff dough starter (Leader) vs., say, Reinhardt's 100% starter based formulas?

[Pdiff]

Re: Yellow Dough???????



And that, Jay, is why we love you!! :-) Always something interesting to say!

Thanks, and thanks for asking the question, Splat.

Pdiff

[texassourdough]

Re: Yellow Dough???????

Rising time to a given expansion is a function of how much yeast starts off in the dough and the temperature (and yes a bunch of other things like hydration, salt, etc. but we will treat them as a constant for this discussion).

Sourdough yeast is much less robust in actiivity than commercial yeast so you need more of it to get a reasonable rise and rise rate. Getting a good rise involves making CO2 and other gases and volatiles (like alcohol) faster than they are escaping. (someone recently mentioned water vapor but it is only a very minor contributor for it doesn't gasify substantially until 212 is reached and your dough and crumb sets at around 180.)

One of the reasons you want to bake bread before it peaks is that peaking coincides with the rate of CO2 generation equalling the leakage or loss rate. But it is a bit more complex than that for CO2 is both dissolved in the dough and in the bubbles. Oven spring occurs by both release of CO2 (and volatile alcohols) from the dough into the bubbles and by heat expansion of the gas in the bubbles. (Gases are lesss soluble in water as temperature rises). The state of rise is a dynamic balance between the generation of CO2 in the dough and its leakage from the dough into the bubbles and from the bubbles and dough out of the loaf. When you handle, score and give ten minuetes or so for the crust to set, a lot of gas will have leaked out of the bread - so if it was peaking it comes out flat. So you want to bake at about 1 2/3 doubled instead of doubled.

Part of this is because sourdough is not as robust as commercial - it won't generate CO2 as rapidly so it has a harder time expanding the loaf to doubled with enough oomph to survive the handling and such.

The above does not really address your question but sets the stage for answering the question of sourdough dose and rising time... Because I am going to talk about peaking time - for that is "cleaner" and more definable than loaf proofing time (which follows a similar logic).

My starter is 100% hydration - equal weights of water and flour. If I expand it 4X (i.e. add 200 grams of water and 200 grams of flour to 100 grams of starter) it will peak at about 13 hours at a temperature of about 72 to 74. Peaking is when the foamy starter has maximum expansion. It is still rising if it has a dome in the center. When it is slightly past peak the center of the dome will be depressed. If it is well past peak the top surface will be concave and/or the side of the expansion jar will show a line where the starter peaked.

Now...if the temperature is 65 I find it takes up to 18 hours for the starter to peak (and have maximum actiivty and thereby yeast content). That is too long to be convenient so I drop my expansion ratio to 3X (i.e. add 150 grams of water and 150 of flour to 100 grams of starter). The yeast will start with a higher concentration and will get the leaven to peak at about 13 hours again. If it were really hot - say 78 or 80 I might use a 5X or 6X expansion to get a similar peaking time.

The reason for being concerned with peaking time is that IF the leaven is early or past peak it won't have maximum activity and your proofing times will need to be extended (and how much is always a question) and consistency becomes a challenge.

As a result, making sourdough by "rote" (a fixed time and formula) may work in a location with very consistent temperature and humidity, but... most kitchens in my experience are not and therefore the time and formula need adjustment.

Having longer proof times is a problem because that indicates the yeast is not as active and therefore struggling to lift the dough and having a harder time getting enough gas to give a good loaf. (It will tend to be dense and chewy and heavy).

Hope that was useful!
Jay

[splatgirl]

Re: Yellow Dough???????

Not to hijack, but could you please elaborate on the expansion ratio/rise time vs. % starter, Jay? I gather that you gauge rise time based on the % of starter in the final dough? VERY interesting and not something I have ever seen discussed before...

[texassourdough]

Re: Yellow Dough???????

I figured it was semolina but didn't have enough info to know for sure. As I understand it the size of the grind on semolina makes a big difference in the effect and is important in pasta making (much like polenta and corn flower). But I don't know the details or how it would affect bread. Good Luck!
Jay

[heliman]

Re: Yellow Dough???????

Hello Jay & thanks for the clarity... it's all starting to make sense now!!!!

On the topic of yellowness - I found this interesting snippet in another forum:

"Just watched a cooking show (Wolfgang Puck on FLN) that showed how Pizzeria Brandi in Naples makes their dough. They showed them use mostly Caputo flour and one scoop of durum wheat flour (semolina flour) to aid elastisity".

[texassourdough]

Re: Yellow Dough???????

Hi Rossco!

A 12 hour sourdough rise at room temperature would imply an expansion ratio of no more than 4 to 1 and probably less (i.e. 400 grams of total flour and water to 100 grams of starter). That is not an unusual ratio but it should have visible bubbles. Could be a higher expansion ratio if held at elevated temperatures - probably up to 8 or 10 to 1 at 86 to 90 degrees F.

[heliman]

Re: Yellow Dough???????

Tks Splat - will keep you posted on the progress.

The place I got the dough from mentioned that they had made the dough that morning so it would have had about a 12 hr fermentation. Not sure if it was left out on the bench or placed in the humidifier (which I know they use).

Would a sourdough starter be able to do its job within the space of 12 hrs and produce some decent pizza dough? I am certain that no additional yeast is used as one can normally smell it and there will be very visible signs of bubbles in the dough - and in this case there is not.

Let the fun continue....

[splatgirl]

Re: Yellow Dough???????

Yep, semolina is high gluten because it's made from hard wheat. AFAIK, the harder the wheat, the higher the gluten.

I think you are onto the right path. Looking forward to hearing your report on the pasta flour version.