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  • #16
    Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

    Hi Tenorio!

    You seem to equate proper or underproofed dough with heavy pies. Methinks you are confused with the proper definition of overproofed. Heavy dough makes heavy pies and heavy bread. Properly proofed pizza (and most bread) doughs should not be heavy. They should be bouncy and light (at least somewhat) and feel alive - not like modeling clay.

    Needing to go to 58 percent hydration is really strange. You must have really soft flour or some processing problems. As lwood indicated and I have long said, better to drop the hydration to where you can handle it and get your technique together than to have the dough so wet you are a basket case.

    Back to overproofing... The simplest way to tell if you are overproofed is the color of the pie. If you scan some of the pie pics on this site you will see pies that have caramelized spots on the pie (cheese, and such) but the crust shows no color. That dough is overproofed. The yeast has consumed all the available sugar and multipled to the point that it is being starved by the rate of sugar creation by the enzymes. And no excess sugar means the crust doesn't brown. So you get a whitish, cardboardy dough or at least move in that direction. It can puff and it can taste okay but by day three or four it gets a bit strange.

    Pizza is much more forgiving than bread. A little under/a little over, no big deal. There are also more variables than just time...

    Good luck!
    Jay

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    • #17
      Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

      Thanks Tenorio, we have spent the last 5 years developing it. BTW, my wife just posted an album on the facebook page of a training session with my workers on opening dough....take a look.

      Wondering how you are developing your dough opening skills? I had a lot of trouble at first opening dough and to this day, occasionally I have to just fold the dough back into a ball and start over with a new dough ball. Until I had my Pizzaiolo friend come down from Manila and show me the proper technique, I was really having trouble. Everybody has trouble opening dough at first. If you have to allow the dough to triple in size, IMO you are loosing more of the light and airy dough than your gaining. Your correct, the dough is like a woman, the more you fight with her more they fight back. No offence ladies, we love you all. Your hydration level dictates how light and puffy more than anything. Suggest you watch more videos on opening dough and proper technique. Wish I could come to Peru and show you....haha. The more you handle your dough the easier it gets. Good luck Ten.

      Thanks Jay for that explanation of over proofed pizza dough. I have noticed the pale white-ish dough intermittently and never knew what was going on.
      Last edited by lwood; 03-27-2011, 07:30 PM.
      Our Facebook Page:http://www.facebook.com/pages/Stoneh...60738907277443

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      • #18
        Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

        Originally posted by texassourdough View Post
        Hi Tenorio!

        You seem to equate proper or underproofed dough with heavy pies. Methinks you are confused with the proper definition of overproofed. Heavy dough makes heavy pies and heavy bread. Properly proofed pizza (and most bread) doughs should not be heavy. They should be bouncy and light (at least somewhat) and feel alive - not like modeling clay.

        Needing to go to 58 percent hydration is really strange. You must have really soft flour or some processing problems. As lwood indicated and I have long said, better to drop the hydration to where you can handle it and get your technique together than to have the dough so wet you are a basket case.

        Back to overproofing... The simplest way to tell if you are overproofed is the color of the pie. If you scan some of the pie pics on this site you will see pies that have caramelized spots on the pie (cheese, and such) but the crust shows no color. That dough is overproofed. The yeast has consumed all the available sugar and multipled to the point that it is being starved by the rate of sugar creation by the enzymes. And no excess sugar means the crust doesn't brown. So you get a whitish, cardboardy dough or at least move in that direction. It can puff and it can taste okay but by day three or four it gets a bit strange.

        Pizza is much more forgiving than bread. A little under/a little over, no big deal. There are also more variables than just time...

        Good luck!
        Jay
        Hi Jay!

        I used to work at 67% hydration, but was messing it up somewhere along the line with the gluten development, so I dropped to 58-60% to get my kneading act together. Maybe "overproofed" in my book really isn't...

        What I mean by overproofed is that when my dough balls have doubled in size in the tray (about 50% bigger diameter), they aren't light and gassy (and pliable) yet. They will get there about 2-3 hours later. We all know the point, where you spread out the disk easily and it's flat it's FULL of gas bubbles all over. Maybe it's been the temperature drop now that fall has started, maybe I need a bit more yeast (I'm using 0.185%), or I have to bump up my water again, or something else. It's more complex than it seems, I know.

        As to the color of the pie... Well when I can do my 90 second pies, I get leoparding and char spots but there really isn't enough time for browning. I can brown if I work at lower (600-700F) temp ranges for a bit longer (2:30-3 mins).

        I definitely am in a "discovery phase" with the new oven and these amounts of dough (hand-kneaded), so bear with me please! (All this is a bit ironic after many years making pizza at home). I guess the trial period 100+ pizza a week has moved me into unfamiliar territory, so I'm making more mistakes in less time.

        I'm going to try a new, stronger flour this week and see what that does... At least I've gotten positive feedback so far, as this is the first pizzeria of this kind down here.

        Thanks again!
        Tenorio
        May your Margheritas be always light and fluffy.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

          Originally posted by lwood View Post
          Thanks Tenorio, we have spent the last 5 years developing it. BTW, my wife just posted an album on the facebook page of a training session with my workers on opening dough....take a look.

          Wondering how you are developing your dough opening skills? I had a lot of trouble at first opening dough and to this day, occasionally I have to just fold the dough back into a ball and start over with a new dough ball. Until I had my Pizzaiolo friend come down from Manila and show me the proper technique, I was really having trouble. Everybody has trouble opening dough at first. If you have to allow the dough to triple in size, IMO you are loosing more of the light and airy dough than your gaining. Your correct, the dough is like a woman, the more you fight with her more they fight back. No offence ladies, we love you all. Your hydration level dictates how light and puffy more than anything. Suggest you watch more videos on opening dough and proper technique. Wish I could come to Peru and show you....haha. The more you handle your dough the easier it gets. Good luck Ten.
          Lwood, I wish you loads of success with your venture.... Holy cow, just having and oven and restaurant is hard enough for me! I can't imagine the logistics of having a resort!!

          My dough opening is fair I guess. I just flatten (no thumbs), rotate and flip 90? and flatten, and repeat (this I got from youtube). Then I stretch over my knuckles a bit (or flip hand-to-hand), and if the dough feels right a toss in the air finishes it. I will check out your album on opening dough..... How much do your dough balls weigh? I'm at 300gr, doing about 31 cm pizza. I get paper thin in the middle sometimes...

          Maybe I am losing more air allowing my dough to expand that much. On tuesday (when I make dough again), I will take pictures at bulk fermentation, just balled in tray, and at 4 and 8 hours. Maybe that will shed some light on things.

          You're more than welcome to come down to Peru!! Believe me, I'd go to the Phillipines if I could I need a break and haven't even really started yet....
          Last edited by Tenorio74; 03-27-2011, 09:08 PM. Reason: Added question
          May your Margheritas be always light and fluffy.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

            Hi Tenorio...

            Sounds like you are probably not overproofed. And a bit over isn't a problem for pizza anyway. Some bread gurus prefer slightly over also.

            Another view of overproofed is that the dough will cease rising. What is generally viewed as "perfect" proof would be just as the dough reaches maximum volume. From there on the best it can do is produce enough gas to hold its volume. There is sort of a plateau which will eventually lead to deflation.

            With bread a lot of us want "rip" in the slashes so we like to bake a bit early for greater oven spring. Not a factor with pizza.

            You should still get browning of the dough. Save a ball in the fridge for three days and bake it and you will see the look I refer to.

            Where are you in Peru? What is your ambient humidity. That could be why you need to be so low in hydration.

            Hang in there!
            Jay

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

              Jay,

              Rel. Humidity is ranging now between 80% (daytime) to 100% (nighttime). It will get higher in a couple of months as we approach winter.

              My dough could definitely keep going if that's an indicator (I forgot that one, like when I have done biga starters). Week before last, I re-balled three left over dough balls and put them in the fridge. Made them 4 days later. They kept growing in the fridge, and I got good oven spring (made some bread and a pizza). The only problem was the slight acidity that had developed.

              I will do the picture thing tomorrow so you can maybe shed some light on my dough stages....

              Have a good one!
              Ten
              May your Margheritas be always light and fluffy.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

                Your flour is all but certainly WET. Last summer my local pizzaria and I both encountered some wet flour and had to drop our hydration to accommodate it. Soo....that explains that...

                You must be using relatively low yeast in your dough. No big deal... except you will find that the enzymes will eventually destroy the nature of the dough as they convert starch to sugar. The dough will get increasingly "runny". Still edible. No big deal. And there should be residual gas in the dough so it should puff. But it is from most perspectives better around the time it peaks.

                Hang in there!
                Jay

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

                  I've been having the same problem and came to the Forum for help. I am so happy I found your post and the numerous replies. I made pizza on Friday night in my Alan Scott oven with a dome temp of 760F and hearth 680F. Burnt bottoms and some sticking to the hearth were and issue.

                  My usual bake is 14 pies using a 65% hydration dough with Caputo 00:KA AP flour 75:25, 3.5% salt and 1.25% fresh yeast. I make the dough the evening before and do a cold rise in the refrigerator overnight. I form my dough balls about 2 hours before I bake and let them rest at room temp until making the pies. I put the dough balls in litte salad bowls I got at a restaurant supply shop. These are coated with a spray of oil before the dough goes in and I give them a spray on top to keep them from drying out (could this be a source of the burnt bottoms?). The dough can be strethed very thin and gives a very nice cornice when it hits the heat. The problem is the burnt bottoms and sometimes crust. I've thought about too much flour being the problem and hence maybe the oil is holding flour on the dough. Also, when I rotate my pies I have been moving them to new locations. I thought I saw this technique in some book so I do it. Anyhow, any help or advice you can give me will be much appreciated.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

                    Jim,

                    To manage my problem I have been cooking at 700-740 without burning... Haven't been able to experiment yet with 800+ again, my pizzer?a open to business already.

                    Two things stand out from your post (post a pic of the bottom of the crust to see what level of burning you're at)

                    1. Never move your pizza to a different location, UNLESS you have just removed a pizza from said spot (usually closer to the fire, because they will brown quicker). Empty spots have a higher temp and WILL burn the bottom (I only do this when working a cold floor, if my oven wasn't ready at opening for one reason or another).

                    2. You form 2 hours before bake? Your cold rise should be balled and ready, not bulk. Formed balls should have had ALL the cold time PLUS the time to come to ambient temp (2+ hours depending on your local temperature). Or do you mean opening out the dough balls?

                    I do (for now) aprox. 12+ hour ambient temp rises, so I can't be much help in the cold department (which I do with recycled dough for bread and such)... Maybe someone else can jump on board (also IMO, with/withou oil, my refrigerated dough doesn't stick together. I just pull them out with loads of flour and care)..

                    Best of luck!
                    Last edited by Tenorio74; 04-26-2011, 08:04 AM. Reason: add word
                    May your Margheritas be always light and fluffy.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

                      Poolish Jim!

                      You have something strange going on. There is no way you should be burning pizzas on a 680 degree hearth unless there are details you aren't telling - like using sugar - nor should it be sticking. Period. You need to examine your process and figure out what you are really doing. Your quoted dome temp seems way low for an oven with a significant fire in place. (The dome should be 30 degrees or so warmer in an equalized oven for baking bread. Quoting suck a low dome temp makes me suspect your temps are way off). IF your temps are accurate I am forced to guess in absence of photos or detailed comments that you are badly overloading your pies and thus requiring overly long cook times. Thin pies need sparse toppings. And thick pies do better in the indoor oven at lower temps IMO.

                      I have to offer alternative comments to Tenorio. Never is too strong a work for moving a pie. His logic is right but...depending on your oven firing you may need to.

                      WRT balling of dough and retardation, that is IMO a fuction of your dough. I find bread flour and 00 based doughs prefer to be balled before retardation to give them a longer relaxation period before pie forming. With AP I prefer balling at the 2 hour point. Since you are using Caputo I would suggest balling early. IMO it makes the dough easier to work with and gives better pie texture.

                      You will probably do better if you drop the yeast to more like a half a percent.

                      Good luck!
                      Jay

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

                        Tenorio!

                        Your .2% yeast is too low, even with a bulk ferment, IMO. I think you will find you get airier dough with better texture with higher yeast. Your 80% pastry flour feels odd also and is likely contributing to your gluten/mixing problems. Why not just use AP?

                        Good luck!
                        Jay

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

                          Jay,
                          You're right in that I do put some sugar in my dough 1.5%. I noticed after I made the post that I forgot to include it. I have been cutting back on yeast as I go, but I still get too big a rise with the refrigerated ferment. I'll cut back on the yeast and eliminate the sugar on the next bake which will probably be Derby Day.

                          Tenorio,
                          Thanks for the oven management tips. I will keep my pies in one place as I turn and see if that helps me out. My set up makes it hard to do dough balls during the refrigerated ferment. I simply don't have enough room for the number that I do. I'll need to look into getting some other type of setup to solve that problem.

                          Thanks all,
                          Jim

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

                            Originally posted by texassourdough View Post
                            I have to offer alternative comments to Tenorio. Never is too strong a work for moving a pie. His logic is right but...depending on your oven firing you may need to.
                            Jay!

                            Maybe never was too strong a word... but I did manage an unless in there!!

                            What I was trying to say, is that when I'm at proper heat on the oven floor, I can't move the pies' location or they will immediately char (except if I've just taken a pie off said spot). My next to fire pies always come out first, so I put them in last, I do about 4 pies at a time tops, and if the ones on the far side are slow, then I'll give them the newly opened spot.

                            Margheritas always cook best for me. Their lightness allows them to float a bit, while heavier pies get pushed down by the weight of the ingredients (accelerating bottom cooking). I loooove doing margheritas but people don't order them that much (they're about all I eat pizza-wise).

                            With fresh yeast I was working at 0.27%, and when I switched to instant I went to about 0.1% and do fine with 10 hours + (using about 38?C water plus about 5 mins activation). I guess I could just use more yeast and room temp water, just haven't done the numbers yet!

                            PoolishJim,

                            You should tell us your cooking times and turning times, maybe thats got something to do with it. I have never put sugar in my dough (for no particular reason), maybe you could experiment without?

                            I also find that if my dough is underproofed, it WILL burn at lower temps because of the lack of bubbles in the dough, which allow it to float a bit off the oven floor. Try proofing more and see if it helps...

                            Best of luck!
                            Tenorio
                            May your Margheritas be always light and fluffy.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

                              Are you cold retarding, Tenorio, or simply doing a long rise at ambient? I have to assume the latter. I can 't imagine your being able to get the dough you show in photos with a cold retard and .1 or .2% yeast? Long ambient rises get tricky because the yeast can multiply faster than the enzymes can create sugar so you get pale dough. A cold retard is useful for it slows the yeast more than the enzyme so when you go back to ambient the yeast has sugar to feed on and can have a growth "spurt" to inflate the dough. And, at two hours the dough should have a small amount of residual sugar to give a more golden crust. If you are ambient and go cold retard you will need higher yeast. And you should get better dough flavor. But I question that will work well with pastry flour. It doesn't have a lot of gluten to begin with and the enzymes break down the starch and the dough gets soupy with extended retards...

                              As a professional you need good oven management skills and in a "hot" oven your suggestion is IMO valid and reasonable - to not move pies to bare spots. But amateur oven management is far more uneven and moving to a bare spot can be useful in a cool oven!

                              Good luck!
                              Jay

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

                                Hi,
                                I had a cook up last night, and after oh lets say 18 months of cooking I had my first no burnt bottom pizzas. I used the dough rec on here, but the difference was I put in the fridge for 3 hrs before taking it out for 2 hrs before using it. I also got the oven up to pizza temps before I cooked in it. When I was ready to go, I dumped the balls in normal plain flour and stretched them out. Always had trouble getting them on to the peel as I was worried about having too much flour on the base and having that burnt flavour. But none of this happened...and I did use a lot of flour in stretching the dough out. So the problem may not be in using normal plain flour to stretch the dough instead of corn flour or others...it just may be that you need to wait for your floor to cool down enough.

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