Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

[PoolishJim]

Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

Tenorio,
My cook times are under 2 minutes. I usually make about 3 turns during the bake when it looks like the side closest to the fire is getting charred. In an effort to get less burnt botom I have been finishing the pie on my peel held up close to the oven dome for about 15 seconds.
Jim

[Tenorio74]

Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

Are you cold retarding, Tenorio, or simply doing a long rise at ambient? I have to assume the latter. I can 't imagine your being able to get the dough you show in photos with a cold retard and .1 or .2% yeast? Long ambient rises get tricky because the yeast can multiply faster than the enzymes can create sugar so you get pale dough. A cold retard is useful for it slows the yeast more than the enzyme so when you go back to ambient the yeast has sugar to feed on and can have a growth "spurt" to inflate the dough. And, at two hours the dough should have a small amount of residual sugar to give a more golden crust. If you are ambient and go cold retard you will need higher yeast. And you should get better dough flavor. But I question that will work well with pastry flour. It doesn't have a lot of gluten to begin with and the enzymes break down the starch and the dough gets soupy with extended retards...

As a professional you need good oven management skills and in a "hot" oven your suggestion is IMO valid and reasonable - to not move pies to bare spots. But amateur oven management is far more uneven and moving to a bare spot can be useful in a cool oven!

Good luck!
Jay

Jay, you are correct on the ambient temp rises. Unfortunately I don't have a walk in cooler yet and my cambro dough trays don't fit in any of my cold storages.... So ambient it is. I decided this on certain neapolitan pizzeria ambient temp rise procedures.

My dough after 12+ hours is very relaxed and gassed up, very easy to open. I am not sure if sugar has been created... I thought that my browning came from the point where the water had been evaporated from the crust hence browning. I will get this at 2:15 - 2:45 mins (I assume 'cause I don't time my pies).... But when I do what I call "vera napolitana" for friends, and have a HUGE fire covering the whole dome, I do 75-90 secs. There, I get leoparding but not browning.

Please check out some pics (taken by my GF) at my FB page Spizza - Specialisti Della Pizza | Facebook
and maybe you'll spot something you can shed some light on (although they really aren't pizza shots, they're more social).

Hopefully one day I'll be able to cold retard my dough trays.... but I'll have to make some more money first!! At least these first weeks have been above expectations

ps. I am using 100% bread flour with the highest protein content there is down here, 13.4. My dough has improved significantly (not to mention the daily weighing routine!)

Cheers!!!
Tenorio

[Tenorio74]

Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

Tenorio,
My cook times are under 2 minutes. I usually make about 3 turns during the bake when it looks like the side closest to the fire is getting charred. In an effort to get less burnt botom I have been finishing the pie on my peel held up close to the oven dome for about 15 seconds.
Jim

Jim,

Your times sound fine to me. Please tell me what IR thermometer you are using, or how you're doing on the flour/semolina test to gauge the floor temp (how many seconds to blacken).... And how proofed do you consider your dough??

Tenorio

[texassourdough]

Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

Hi Tenorio!

in your pics you have a close up of a cut pie and slice. The crust it browned but it doesn't have the "golden" look of properly proofed dough. It isn't as gray as I would expect it to be given your description but it definitely looks overproofed. (Again, as I often point out, over is not disaster with pizza.)

By 12 hours after mixing final dough the sugar is mostly gone which is why it doesn't get color in a hot oven and isn't golden (more like less yellow/gold) than it could be.

Without a cooler you are kind of caught in a bind. Longer gives more flavor, but without temp control you are overshooting. A key point - you can only do what you can do. Without a cooler and wanting longer fermentation, and with timing limitations you get what you get. And that is clearly not bad...

So...I think it would be a good experiment for you to make a small batch and get it to whatever state you refer to beginning your 12 hours (which I think is balled) and then baking a pie at 4 hours, 6 hours, 8 hours, and maybe 10 hours and see how the dough changes in color, taste, and feel across that time span. Taste should be inferior in the early pies but color should be better. With a cooler you should be able to get both - color and flavor.

The 13.4% protein bread flour should be good. I usually prefer to add a bit of oil to my bread flour dough.

Sounds like you are doing about as good as you can!
Jay

[lwood]

Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

Hi Ten,
Great looking Facebook page. Your place really looks professional.

[tusr18a]

Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

Jay, great thread. I have recently had some problems with the cornichon being pale in color. I have been scratching my head wondering why it was happening. Never thought that it might be over-proofed. I seem to be using a different dough recipe than most here. First I use a standard AP flour. I find that it creates a softer crumb than when I have used bread flour. Second, I knead the dough for half hour and then let it rise for 90 minutes. I do not use the cold ferment methods that I hear most using. I use the dough immediately. It is usually in the wood fired oven shortly after the 90 minute rise. Could the dough over proof in 90 minutes?

[Tscarborough]

Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

Tusr18a, I would say that that is a kitchen oven recipe and that you would do much better with a higher hydration and a longer ferment, either warm or cold, and cut out all of the kneading, other than a stretch and fold or 7.

[Tenorio74]

Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

Hi Tenorio!

in your pics you have a close up of a cut pie and slice. The crust it browned but it doesn't have the "golden" look of properly proofed dough. It isn't as gray as I would expect it to be given your description but it definitely looks overproofed. (Again, as I often point out, over is not disaster with pizza.)

By 12 hours after mixing final dough the sugar is mostly gone which is why it doesn't get color in a hot oven and isn't golden (more like less yellow/gold) than it could be.

Without a cooler you are kind of caught in a bind. Longer gives more flavor, but without temp control you are overshooting. A key point - you can only do what you can do. Without a cooler and wanting longer fermentation, and with timing limitations you get what you get. And that is clearly not bad...

So...I think it would be a good experiment for you to make a small batch and get it to whatever state you refer to beginning your 12 hours (which I think is balled) and then baking a pie at 4 hours, 6 hours, 8 hours, and maybe 10 hours and see how the dough changes in color, taste, and feel across that time span. Taste should be inferior in the early pies but color should be better. With a cooler you should be able to get both - color and flavor.

The 13.4% protein bread flour should be good. I usually prefer to add a bit of oil to my bread flour dough.

Sounds like you are doing about as good as you can!
Jay

Hi Jay! Thanks for your tips and advice..... As you said I am doing the best I can. Fortunately for me, the "gourmet" pizza market isn't developed, so I don't have serious competition in this field.

Quick questions - 1) For the experiment you suggest, I would have to do multiple batches with varying amounts of yeast? Like 2-3% IDY for the 4 hour dough?

2) Do you think I could do shorter proofing times, and make up the lack of flavor incorporating a biga starter? That's the next experiment I've been thinking about....

The only thing that has happened to me is that with high yeast/high temp/short fermentation times (4-6 hours), the gluten development is not as good, making it more work to open up my pies (a problem when I have a waiting list of 10).... I don't know if incorporating a starter would help in that department.

3) Would you consider refrigerating bulk dough doing 6kg batches? Wouldn't it take to long for the center to cool?

ps. It makes you want to say something putting all this work in and then have 50% of people not eat the crust!!

Cheers!
Tenorio

[Tenorio74]

Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

Hi Ten,
Great looking Facebook page. Your place really looks professional.

Thanks Lwood!! We're definitely learning as we go... The hardest thing has been finding good waiters and dishwashers!

I've never been organized enough to do a picture essay of my dough process, but with the longer proofing times the balls are super relaxed and easy to open up! I picked up a few hints from your FB page with your dough classes.... thanks!!!

I do toss them a bit sometimes, just for show (and it helps get excess flour off )

[texassourdough]

Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

Hi Tusr18..

The dough you are making is as simple as it gets and serves primarily as an edible plate. You simply don't have enough time to develop any significant complexity to the flavor. You are also using volumes which guarantees erratic results unless you have great touch.

Kneading for a half hour is way overkill. AP flour is fine. I use AP a lot (though my personal favorite dough is from organic BF). I usually make two and sometimes three doughs for I have specific doughs I prefer to use with specific pizza toppings! (Based on wetness and topping weight more than anything else).

Yes, you can overproof in 90 minutes (plus your 30 minutes of kneading which is 2 hours). You have about 7 grams of yeast in 340 or so grams of flour. THAT IS 2% YEAST! And we are talking about .5% to 1%. And you are using hot WATER which exacerbates the problem. Half the package would be more than enough for that recipe.

As an aside, Gourmet should be ashamed of themselves for attributing that to Chris Bianco (and he should protest) for that is a hollow rendition of his dough.

Cut back, way back, on the yeast - even if you keep making it as you do - but you can't make great dough fast. Period! If you really want to do it FAST, try soaking half the flour for 12 hours before you add the yeast and salt. It will make a big difference. (Use all the water and half the flour - then add the rest of the flour, the yeast and the salt).

Jay

[texassourdough]

Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

Hi Tenorio


I inserted your questions...

1) For the experiment you suggest, I would have to do multiple batches with varying amounts of yeast? Like 2-3% IDY for the 4 hour dough?

No! Just like always. The whole purpose is to figure out when your dough is losing its sugar. I am betting you will like it better earlier than your normal 12 hours. The goal is to gain experience with your process. If you like a shorter time you can probably get closer to it by dropping the yeast even a little more. Or mixing with cooler water...

2) Do you think I could do shorter proofing times, and make up the lack of flavor incorporating a biga starter? That's the next experiment I've been thinking about....

This works to an extent and is certainly superior to a straight fast dough. I am not sold on it but I haven't really researched it enough to provide a definitive answer. I suspect one can get really good results if they work on the process. You can also add flavor by simply adding sourdough starter (more properly a levain/preferment) at the point you make the final dough (20 percent seems like a nice amount in my experience). You would probably want to still use commercial yeast to make your final rise predictable. NOTE: you could simply use presoaked flour as I suggested in the preceding message. There are lots of ways to improve flavor!

The only thing that has happened to me is that with high yeast/high temp/short fermentation times (4-6 hours), the gluten development is not as good, making it more work to open up my pies (a problem when I have a waiting list of 10).... I don't know if incorporating a starter would help in that department.

This doesn't particularly make sense to me. I have read it before and I don't understand the details of the problem. I have a feeling you are probably referring to a "tightening" of the dough which makes it hard to form pies. They want to spring back and to tear. That is exactly why I ball 00 and BF doughs shortly after mixing final dough. And I store them in trays. My fave pizzaria has ten balls per tray. I use smaller trays that hold six and fit in my refrigerator. The dough needs to be relaxed when you get to the pie making process.

3) Would you consider refrigerating bulk dough doing 6kg batches? Wouldn't it take to long for the center to cool?

The center takes longer to cool and longer to warm up so it is a wash. Why not ball it in advance. Yeah it takes more space but...

Good luck!
Jay

[PoolishJim]

Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

Tenorio,
I measure my oven temp with thermocouples place in the hearth and dome bricks. They are about 1 inch from the oven surface. I have not done the flour test nor used an IR termometer. Is there an advantage to the either oer the method I'm using?

Jim

[Tenorio74]

Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

Jim,

I donn't have couples in my oven, but I will tell you that superficial floor temp rises quite rapidly with a raging fire going. Your superficial brick temp may be higher that at 1 inch down (if you're not allowing a time for heat equalization), and could effectively be higher than what your couples read - and I guess be the cause of your burning.

Do the flour test - If it blackens immediately (less than 1 sec), your floor is hotter than what your thermocouples are reading (the advantage here is you don't have to buy an IR thermometer). I have an IRT, and sometimes flour test as well.

Cheers,
Tenorio

[PoolishJim]

Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

Tenorio,
I took the suggestion you and Jay gave me for fixing the burnt bottoms. I cut out sugar in my dough and used less yeast (.75%). I put the pies in the same spot after turning and used the flour test to guarge hearth temp. I counted to 3 before the flour burned. My thermocouples gave a dome temp of 780F and hearth at 740 when I started baking pies. Folks thought these were the best over. I would still like to get a little more crisp in the crusts so if you have any suggestions please let me know. I am going to try and link in some pictures so you can see the results. Any comments apprecitated.

Thanks for your help,
Jim

https://picasaweb.google.com/James.T...eat=directlink

[texassourdough]

Re: Help - Burnt pizza bottom!!

The three second "char" on flour is pretty reliably 740 to 750 on my IR thermometer also. Two seconds is closer to 800 in my experience and anything less is virtually unworkable. And more than four or five seconds is too cool for anything but a dessert pizza!

Crispness is a function of many factors - and toppings (and particularly topping wetness) are among the most critical factors. I routinely make almost crackerlike pies using Neopolitan dough (Caputo 00) but when one puts tomato sauce on the pie it becomes virtually impossible to get that dough crisp in my experience. And it gets soggy quickly as it soaks the water/juice from the sauce.

A general comment would be to lay down some oil (brush or wipe it on to spread it). That creates a bit of a water barrier to the dough. Second, dry out your sauces somewhat - i.e. cook them down some to make them thicker. And put wet things on top, not on the dough.

All of those will help.
Jay