Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

[scott123]

Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

Yes, DM is definitely more flame than coals. Considering that they're selling 1000 pizzas a day, I don't see how they'd have much time to replenish the hearth heat by spreading coals on it, and, instead, depend on the roaring flame reflecting off the ceiling to keep the hearth hot.

I think you've got a typo in your ratios. Regardless, your current recipe, minus the biga, is well within Neapolitan specifications. It's going to take some trial and error to dial in the cake yeast quantity for an 18 hour ferment. I would start off fairly conservatively- it's better to have the dough not quite double in your allotted time frame and ramp the temp a bit to help it catch up, than to have it double early on you and force an earlier bake.

[heliman]

Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

I noticed the DM wood was quite thinly cut. The wood I use now tends to be short and chunky - making good coals but not much in the way of flame. I have been adding smaller bits of wood to the coal bed to create a balanced fire but have some Bottlebrush wood which I will split to the size of the DM wood and use that to make a fire and see what the results look like.

I popped to the Italian store after work yesterday to get some fresh yeast but they had sold out. I will go out at lunch time today to try and get some. Will then make a batch of dough as per your suggestion.

[scott123]

Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

It sounds like you're on the right track, Rossco, I'm looking forward to hearing about your next bake.

Speaking of thinner wood creating a more active flame, I distinctly recall seeing someone famous, maybe Mangieri, working with sawdust. I have no idea how to work that into the bake, but I think you'll do just fine with thinner pieces of wood.

Is the wood nice and dry?

[heliman]

Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

I have heard of wood shavings being added for flavour (Mangieri and DM I think), but not sawdust as such.

Wood has been split and is drying in the hot sun at the moment. Should be good to go in a week or two's time. I have other super-dry wood which I will split thinner to use in the meantime.

[scott123]

Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

That's it, wood shavings. I'm only going by what I've seen in videos and I thought it looked like sawdust, but you're 100% correct, shavings it is.

[heliman]

Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

Managed to get some very fresh yeast today and made a French loaf to see how it compared to using IDY, so I could adjust the pizza recipe accordingly. I doubled the amount of IDY for this test. The yeast was quite active so I think I will do 1:1 with the fresh yeast for the pizza and see what happens. Pic of French loaf.. proofed for 90 mins...

[shuboyje]

Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

The saw dust is a pretty traditional trick to give a quick burst of top heat. Throughout the course of the day in a commercial setting it would probably be a great trick. For a few pies at home you shouldn't need it. Also Your oven won't be heat saturated like a commercial oven, without a constant flame the floor temperature would plummet so. A quick burst of top heat on a cold floor would make for an unbalanced bake.

So long as I'm posting to this thread one more thing I noticed. In Naples they start with the water then add the salt and then the yeast. They claim the salt has a positive effect of the yeast due to osmotic pressure from the best I can gather.

[heliman]

Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

On the floor heat .. Mine is constant but very high due to a large bed of coals. Next fire i am going to make a quick burning fire with smaller pieces of wood and see how that goes.

I always put the water in first as it seems to makes sense from a mixing point of view...

[Tenorio74]

Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

Hi guys.... I haven't been around for a while (learning the pizzeria business) but the subject topic caught my eye...

Rossco, as far as I can tell after having made a couple thousand pizzas (owning a pizzeria napoletana will do that to ya, I hope to reach 1000 day at some point in my life), you guys are right at 2 critical points imo:

1. somewhat overproofed dough (by forums standards.... by my standards at the correct proofing point)
2. HUGE fire going, -1 second mississipi temp test

I work everyday at an optimal floor temp of 370C with celing temps +100. If i'm making sparse margheritas for my italian customers, I can work closer to 400 floor because the pizza is very light.... With heavier pizzas, the toppings will weigh the pizza down and press it against the oven floor, and it will char at higher temps.

For leoparding to occur, insanely large fire is a must, the more convective heat the better. You really need the hot air rushing around in there like a hurricane. I have been constantly making my pizzaiolos notice the importance of having the huge fire at the moment you load the pizza in the oven. The first 30-45 seconds are the most important. Have that huge fire, and with the right dough, that's it. When I want to make proper neapolitan margheritas o marinaras, I always push for 1:15-1:30 bake time. Any longer and it wasn't hot enough.... Then I'll get whitish dough with black spots.

As for my dough, we work usually at 61% hydration with IDY (cake was a pain in the *ss), with little bulk (maybe 30 mins) and variable ball proof time (18 hrs for overnite and 9 hrs for dinner dough)... at around 0.04% and 0.16% respectively (must be re converted for cake yeast percentages).

I don't usually push for leoparding day to day, because people are used to brown/golden pizza.... But I personally love it.

cheers all
tenorio

[heliman]

Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

Thanks for the info - it sounds like the primary culprit is the raging fire. I have a pizza session arranged for next Sunday. I have split some fast buring wood for the occasion and will forego the "coal making" process that I have been following up till now.

Just received an email from the pizza place to advise that they have ordered a 12.5 kg bag of Allied Perfection Baker's flour (12.5 protein) - see comparison chart here: http://www.dileofoods.com.au/A4%20Flour%20&%20Yeast.pdf

Will there be a noticeable difference in the "rubberyness" of the pizzas? Just wondering about the overall difference in texture etc between the Superb Baker's Flour (11%) and Perfection baker's flour at 12.5%. Perhaps someone can clarify this...

[heliman]

Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

The experiment has started...

58% hydration
Perfection flour
2.6% - salt
0.5% - fresh yeast

Very rubbery texture but it loosened up a bit after about 8 mins KA kneading and a few mins on the bench. Now bulk fermenting on the bench. Will ball it before going to work tomorrow morning...

[scott123]

Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

Tenorio, thanks for the input. It sounds like you're leaning more towards a Neapolitan/NY hybrid, with your browning rather than leoparding- that's pretty common with wood oven owners on this side of the world. You've got to give your clientele what they want.

Rossco, the Perfection flour has more protein than the Superb. More protein requires more water, not less. 58% hydration with 12.5% protein isn't completely outside the Neapolitan specs, but it might fight you a bit on the stretch.

Protein, when kneaded, forms gluten and gluten is chewy. Gluten is also elastic, causing the dough to pull back when you stretch it. I put forward the idea to try the Perfection flour because I felt like it would perform closer to Caputo pizzeria flour. Even though the Caputo has less protein, it's milled with very little heat so that the protein it does have is very viable and thus acts like a higher protein flour.

To be honest, I'm half way round the world and have no idea how the Perfection will fare or even if the Superb is even suitable for Neapolitan. I do know of at least one very successful home Neapolitan pizza baker who achieved stellar results with a non Italian 12.7% flour so I have a lot of hope for the Perfection, but I can't make any guarantees.

Neapolitan pizza is naturally a bit chewy. It's usually puffy, but, because of the glutenous nature of the Caputo, it's a bit chewy. Not NY chewy, but a bit. Chewiness/elasticity can be controlled, to an extent, by kneading. Less kneading translates into less chewiness/less elasticity. If you're hoping to avoid chewiness altogether, you can move away from authentic Neapolitan pizza and go with something like the Superb flour. As I said before, though, if you're trying to match the Caputo, Perfection is your best bet.

I know it doesn't list ingredients on the bag, but call Allied and find out if their flours are malted. We've talked about this a little bit before, but I'm bringing it up again because it's a huge factor in fermentation.

[heliman]

Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

Thanks Scott...

Update 1: I removed the dough from the container a short while ago and noticed it had trebbled in size. I will cut down the next batch of yeast by half. The reformed dough is resting and I will ball it shortly. It feels quite smooth and less elastic so the 58% hydration seems to have been ok...

Will crank up the oven this evening and give it a test run.

Update 2: My observation of the dough texture was that it was very elastic but along the lines of what I saw in the DM video and elsewhere - demonstrated by being able to pull the prepared pizza onto the peel. I haven't been able to achieve this up until now - probably due to the high hydration and lower protein content. The texture was very soft and often was very thin in places. I also observed that there is very little stretching with the DM method. A few stretches with two hands and it's on with the sauce.

On the topic of sauce, I noticed that they use canned tomatoes and just prepare them with a stick blender. No seed removal which some have suggested, turn the sauce bitter when the blades strike them during the preparation process. I have been reducing my canned tomatoes to get a thicker consistency - seems like DM don't bother with that.

Moving on to the yeast - I have clearly used too much of it and expect to see some very puffed up dough when I get home. I will give that a light kneed and reform the balls and let them sit on the bench for 1.5 hrs while I get the fire ready. They should relax sufficiently to allow for final shaping. I will be preparing another batch of dough later in the week so will aim for a 1/4 - 1/2 of the amount used in the first batch.

[heliman]

Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

I know it doesn't list ingredients on the bag, but call Allied and find out if their flours are malted...

Have just fired off a note to the Sales Manager at Allied to get clarity on the "malt" question. I have also asked for the spec sheets for both Superb and perfection flours.

BTW - are these flours "unbleached" as is normally suggested for pizza baking?? Didn't see that mentioned on the bag anywhere.

[scott123]

Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

I will give that a light kneed and reform the balls and let them sit on the bench for 1.5 hrs while I get the fire ready.

1. Never ever knead a fermented dough. By the time the dough is fermented, the gluten is strong, but extremely vulnerable. Kneading it at that point is going to start shredding the gluten and you'll end up with a gooey mess that will not only never leopard, but will never brown properly either because it will be oozing water.

The only exception to this is extremely wet doughs- those are very forgiving of gluten abuse. But 58%, as I've mentioned is far from extremely hydrated.

2. 1.5 hours is not long enough for a re-balled dough. Ideally, you never want to re-ball, but if you misjudge the yeast and absolutely have to, you should really re-ball a minimum of 3 hours before baking.