Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

[heliman]

Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

Ok tks for the feedback Scott..

In relation to the fire - the problem I have is that if I make a fire with a lot of flame DM style, the result is that i get a very hot floor. Difficult to keep the floor temp under 400 for that reason.

I think i am kneading for around 6 mins. I did the windowpane test and the dough looked perfect. Haven't checked pre and post temps - i will do for the next batch however to narrow down the possible causal issues of poor performance. I have some good, cool spots in the house to store the fermenting dough so will check temps and then use the coolest one.

Will the use of cold water not just delay the yeast activity for about an hr or so until the mix reaches room temp - or does the cold yeast have a longer term effect on the dough?

[shuboyje]

Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

400C is only about 750F, so really not very hot in terms of wood fired pizza. In my experience you want the oven 900F+, about 480C, for really good leoparding. If the flour you have access to is burning at those temperatures the best solution is to up the hydration. I used to make and 80% hydration dough from bread flour and cook it on a 1000F hearth, never burned and leoparded great, but obviously takes some learning to handle.

[scott123]

Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

Shuboyje, if you take a look at the beginning of this thread, you'll see that the advice you're giving Rossco is the same advice I've been giving him all along. If he's getting burning in 90 seconds, regardless of the temp, then he needs to work at a lower temp. Once he gets the dough dialed in and can produce reliable 90 second pies, then he might want to push the heat envelope.

Rossco, for an overnight fermentation, windowpaning is too much gluten development. Windowpaning is only effective for same day doughs. If 6 minutes is giving you windowpaning, try 5 or maybe even 4.

Although the common way to start a fire in a WFO is to begin with a roaring fire in the middle, with embers that drive up the heat of the hearth and then pushing it to the side, I don't see any drawbacks to either moving the fire to the side sooner or even starting the fire on the side. A roaring fire on the side shouldn't drive up the temp of the hearth that quickly.

[Tenorio74]

Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

I get somewhat burnt pizza bottoms at 400+ C?.... Above 425 it gets considerably worse... There is a link somewhere on this thread to a video showing work at a Neapolitan pizzeria, where you can see an oven themometer at around 370C.

I think floor material has much to do with the issue of burning. Firebrick conducts much faster than pressed red brick they use for neapolitan oven floors (I believe), just as sheet metal at 400? would char your pie faster than you could say "Da Micheles"

Scott, what in your opinion are the drawbacks to taking an overnight dough to windowpane level of development? Maybe its a problem I'm having and I didn't realize why it was happening (although the night I decided to hand mix my batch, I got super dough the next day - the light bulb over my head didn't understand why though...)

[Tenorio74]

Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

PS. I have worked for months at 61% hydration, and have just started trying out 63% again (big difference that 2%).... but RH here in Lima is extremely high, 75% daytime, around 90% nighttime (and we're in spring), so I'm still experimenting.

My only problem with doing 61% or lower hydration is that I can never get dough like those at DM or other neapolitan pizzerias – soft, easy to open, strong and easy to slide around the marble..... Sometimes my dough breaks down while opening it out and will start "crying".... little wet cracks that ooze water.... I hate it when that happens.

[scott123]

Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

Tenorio, windowpaning = proper gluten development. Fermentation develops gluten, so long, overnight ferments add to the development scorecard. If you start with windowpaning and add more development, the dough can become overworked.

Overworked dough can be hard to stretch, giving you too much elasticity without enough extensibility. It can also contribute towards a tougher crumb. If you really go overboard with the kneading (15+ minutes machine kneading) and then add an overnight ferment, then you're in danger of damaging the gluten to a point where you're working with a gloppy mess.

Hand kneading is very gentle and generates very little heat. Fork mixers were invented specifically to mirror these attributes. When you get into C and spiral hooks, even on the lowest setting they tend to be overkill, so you have to be careful.

Now, the tougher crust of a longer knead might be a desired trait. If you look at some of the more popular pizzerias, though- Bianco, Keste, Co, the doughs all act like they are barely kneaded at all. Rossco is shooting for something DaMichele-ish, which acts a little bit stronger, so I'm not advocating barely any kneading here, but, in general, in both the pizza and bread world, less kneading is translating into superior results.

Also, while we're on the topic of gluten development, it's also worth mentioning that not only are Bianco, Keste and Co. avid minimal kneaders, they also tend to treat their dough balls incredibly gently during the stretch. Keste doesn't form their dough anywhere nearly as aggressively as the traditional Neapolitan slappers.

[scott123]

Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

PS. I have worked for months at 61% hydration, and have just started trying out 63% again (big difference that 2%).... but RH here in Lima is extremely high, 75% daytime, around 90% nighttime (and we're in spring), so I'm still experimenting.

My only problem with doing 61% or lower hydration is that I can never get dough like those at DM or other neapolitan pizzerias ? soft, easy to open, strong and easy to slide around the marble..... Sometimes my dough breaks down while opening it out and will start "crying".... little wet cracks that ooze water.... I hate it when that happens.

Tenorio, for your elevation, a relatively higher than Neapolitan hydration is in order. 2% sounds pretty reasonable.

You're seeing 61% hydration Caputo pizzeria flour doughs 'ooze water' when you open them? That seems a bit odd to me. Oozing water is pretty much a sign of extreme overkneading.

[shuboyje]

Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

Ok, where to begin.

Neapolitan ovens do not use "pressed reds", traditionally they use biscotto di sorrento floors made in four segments. Like many areas of the world, the Naples area has natural clays that were found to be refractory at some point in time, and that is what these are made from. My understanding is the traditional floors are pressed and dried. From my understanding(I keep saying that cause this info is hard to find and generally in italian) more recently a newer type of floor has come about. It is the same four segment floor, but it is fired. I would bet it is very similar in conductivity to firebrick.

As for the oven thermometer...I believe that is air temp at the front(coolest part) of the oven. Useless IMHO for pizza. For pizza the deck temperature is key and is what most people reference.

This all aside, my personal experiences come from my two ovens, both built by me entirely from firebrick. Only once have I ever burnt a pizza. In my first oven. I got a little over zealous and decided to try and fire my oven on WVO. It was by far the hottest I ever got it, about 1300F. Outside of that my goal is to always good at 900F+ on the floor. Using either Caputo(I assume other italian 00 also) at normal hydration, or bread flour and high gluten flour at very high hydration your pie will not burn at those temps.

750F pizza is just not neapolitan IMHO, let alone under that. We have many so called "neapolitan" pizzerias here who run 700-750F, and although a few produce a good pizza they are a world apart from something out of a hotter oven.

[heliman]

Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

More interesting discussion on this topic!

Been a bit busy of late but I plan to do a batch of dough at the weekend and will let it rest in a cool spot overnight as suggested. Very short kneading time too. I will use bottlebrush wood which does't burn as hot as the white gum that I normally use and see if that prevents burning of the base.

[heliman]

Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

Next batch made with perfection flour, using cold fridge water, 60% hydration (should it be higher?) and miniscule fresh yeast. Into a cool room in the house to ferment over night. Will ball in the morning and cook when I get home from work...

[heliman]

Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

Update - there was hardly any visible yeast action on the dough after 8 hrs fermentation. It had relaxed nicely, was pliable and formed well. Temp in the room where it has been proofing is 24.5 C and fairly constant. Now doing the final proofing...

[scott123]

Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

Update - there was hardly any visible yeast action on the dough after 8 hrs fermentation.

Excellent.

[Dino_Pizza]

Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

Sounds like a good experiment Rossco. Can't wait to hear how it turns out. What was your kneading method for this batch? And for how long? Just curious. -Dino

[heliman]

Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

Excellent.

Wondering though if that was the miniscule amount of yeast added??

[heliman]

Re: Leoparding - The Discussion Continues...

Sounds like a good experiment Rossco. Can't wait to hear how it turns out. What was your kneading method for this batch? And for how long? Just curious. -Dino

Very short - a few minutes (approx 3) then a minute or so on the bench.