Flour or Cornmeal

[PizzaArthur]

Re: Flour or Cornmeal

I use flour and only use just a bit.

Cornmeal changes the flavor of the pizza.

The "trick" is to add flour to the dough on one board/marble then shake off the flour and transfer it to the peel - don't flatten the dough on the peel otherwise the dough will stick to the peel unless you put a lot of flour. You can get away with just a small amount of flour on the peel if you stretch it elsewhere.

Too much flour on the peel = too bitter taste of the pizza.

[Johnny L]

Re: Flour or Cornmeal

Hi James,
Your photos look great by the way!
Once again you really got me going on the subject.

I have used high gluten flour, corn meal, Caputo flour and finally the Semolina mix. The slightly course Semolina and Durum flour give me confidence that my pizza will slide out directly into the oven. So far, so good.

Pizza Arthur, I know exactly what you mean by using too much ingredient and having a bitter pizza. I had the tendency early on to use too much on my peel. Now just a thin layer does the trick.

The best ingredient is the one that works for you.

[CanuckJim]

Re: Flour or Cornmeal

John,

Did a quick check in Jeffrey Hamelman's Bread on durham flour. According to him, most of the hard flour we get in North America is made from hard red winter or spring wheat. Durham wheat, by contrast is grown in North Dakota and (though he doesn't say this) mainly in Saskatchewan. It's primary use is for pasta. It has a higher percentage of protein than either winter or spring wheat but not all of it usable in gluten matrix formation. He says that bread doughs made with a high proportion of it to tend break down during mixing, so care must be taken with mechanical mixers. Instead, he recommends shorter mixing times, longer bulk fermentation and folding. Durham flour is soft and golden, while semolina made from the same wheat has a gritty coarseness.

This tendency to break down might have something to do with the fact that many North American recipes that use durham flour call for a 50/50 mix with hard bread flour.

As a side note, he suggests that although hard red winter wheat bread flours have somewhat lower protein than spring wheat flours, there is evidence that the protein in winter wheats is superior in making natural yeast hearth breads that have long fermentation times.

Found this definition of durham wheat fairly quickly:

durum

Scientific classification
Kingdom: Plantae

Division: Magnoliophyta

Class: Liliopsida

Order: Poales

Family: Poaceae

Subfamily: Pooideae

Tribe: Triticeae

Genus: Triticum

Species: T. durum


Binomial name
Triticum durum
Desf.
Durum wheat or Macaroni wheat (Triticum durum) is the only tetraploid species of wheat widely cultivated today. Durum is the hardest of all wheats. Its high protein content and gluten strength make durum good for pasta and bread. It is not, however, good for cakes, which should be made from soft wheat or they will be tough, because of the high gluten content of durum.

Most of the durum grown today is amber durum, the grains of which are amber-colored and larger than those of other types of wheat. Durum has a yellow endosperm, which gives pasta its color. When durum is milled, the endosperm is ground into a granular product called semolina. Semolina made from durum is used for premium pastas and breads.

There is also a red durum, used mostly for livestock feed.

Durum wheat sells at a premium to other varieties and accounts for roughly 5% of global wheat production, or about 30 million tons in 2004. Most durum wheat is grown in Mediterranean countries, the former Soviet Union, North America, and Argentina. U.S. durum production is primarily in North Dakota, which produced 59% of the US crop in 2004. However the largest producer of durum is Canada where it is the third most prominent crop behind red spring wheat and canola, the primary region for durum is in the southern quarter of Saskatchewan.


Maybe others can find more or different.

Jim

[Johnny L]

Re: Flour or Cornmeal

Jim,
Thanks for your input. Since this particular subject is new ground for me I'm going to soak it up for a while. Then I'll compare notes with Peter Reinhart's notes in the Bread Baker's Apprentice.
In the past couple of months I have run across many of your posts and was able to pick up a lot of information from your valuable input.
I appreciate it Jim.

[Dutchoven]

Re: Flour or Cornmeal

I voted cornmeal, I like the little ball bearing action it gives. I also don't notice a taste difference really. I might try ap flour and will definitely try semolina.
Dutch

[RTflorida]

Re: Flour or Cornmeal

I agree, cornmeal does seem to work better. I just don't like the grittyness on my pizza, so I usually use flour. As for taste, no preference.

[Johnny L]

Re: Flour or Cornmeal

When I started making pizza I (admit that I) used too much cornmeal a few times. My fire alarm in the house would sound off. Then after backing down it got better. I seem to get a certain smokey smell though when I used cornmeal in a 550+ degree oven. Maybe a reminder of the early days?

The Semolina four seems to give me the same "ball bearing action" as the cornmeal, without the smokey smell. I'll dust with Caputo flour and Semolina, but put the Semolina on my wooden peel. It works for me.
This is only from my own experience, and I wanted to share it with you.
The bottom line is that if it works for you and your oven then it's good.
John

[Bacterium]

Re: Flour or Cornmeal

my current option = pizza trays

Ahhh hey I'm a noobie at this, so this ones more for the beginners. I use locally sourced pizza trays (they are almost flat, slight lip, the shops use them). I tried the flour method but lost the toppings a few times when flicking the peel - so rather than embarrasing myself this works for now.

Basically I assemble pizza on tray (no flour underneath, just a dry - clean tray), then slide tray onto oven floor to cook. Around 30seconds the dough releases itself from the tray enough for me to grab pizza tray (with tongs) and the pizza slides nicely onto the dome floor to keep cooking. Once cooked I then extract the pizza with my peel.

The positives
-I can make a few pizzas up ahead of time
-No more toppings shooting off if base sticks
-Plus you can use the edges to pinch the dough to...if needed


And to "cheat" further (if the top does cook to quickly)....I hold the peel over the top (to act as a shield) to let the underside finish off cooking.......as I said "noobie"

[Richard]

Re: Flour or Cornmeal

What type of tray are you using? do you have pictures? size, source

[Archena]

Re: Flour or Cornmeal

He probably means a baking sheet (also called a cookie sheet) with only one (or three) crimped edges. At least one edge is left flat so that you can just slide whatever you're baking right off. They're great for sliding off cookies and I'd imagine would work well for what Bacterium is describing.




Source

[Bacterium]

Re: Flour or Cornmeal

ok they are aluminium trays.

I got mine from the local Italian Shop - Mercato - Home - which BTW is a great spot. I can't get an online picture there so have a look here(this company supply equipment to the local pizza shops):
Metal Spinners - Products: Pizza Cookware

Go down the page to "Trays" and they are the aluminium ones.
I'm guessing mild steel or stainless steel would be no good as the dough would stick too much.

Sorry I haven't pics of my own but I am working on that

Archena I have seen something like a cookie sheet but not tried it...mmmm

[Hendo]

Re: Imma and Mario's Mercato

I got mine from the local Italian Shop - Mercato - Home - which BTW is a great spot.

Damon,

It is great, isn't it? Last Saturday I found some Italian Buffalo Mozzarella for Insalata Caprese (Italian dinner with friends that night) - delightful, and not nearly as strong or gamey as Shaw River's from Victoria. I think it's a new line, and it would also be great for pizza toppings!

Cheers, Paul.

[Archena]

Re: Flour or Cornmeal

Ah, okay. It just sounded so much like a sheet...

[Bacterium]

Re: Imma and Mario's Mercato

Damon,

It is great, isn't it? Last Saturday I found some Italian Buffalo Mozzarella for Insalata Caprese (Italian dinner with friends that night) - delightful, and not nearly as strong or gamey as Shaw River's from Victoria. I think it's a new line, and it would also be great for pizza toppings!

Cheers, Paul.

ahhh yes...such a great shop to wander about and consider recipe ideas. If any of you other Adelaide guys go Cambelltown/Newton way its worth a visit.

[jwnorris]

Re: Flour or Cornmeal

He probably means a baking sheet (also called a cookie sheet) with only one (or three) crimped edges. At least one edge is left flat so that you can just slide whatever you're baking right off. They're great for sliding off cookies and I'd imagine would work well for what Bacterium is describing.

At the wood fired cooking class this past weekend at Ramekin's in Sanoma they used a regular sheet pan however, it was turned upside down. This way there are no edges and everything slides off without issue - as long as the pan is well floured.

J W