Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Well I've just done a batch of 3 pizzas in the electric oven and the results were spectacular. Definitely the best batch of dough I have made so far! I have no doubt that these would have been even better in the WFO so will put the next batch of dough to the test in it at the weekend.

I was able to handle the dough without a problem and it stretched very easily without breaking. No thin spots!! Will be with some refinements like using cold water, less yeast etc. but this has been a major breakthrough so things can only more forward from here.

Results from this evenings bake-off below:

1. Mushroom, roma tomatoes and ricotta

2. Anchovy, capers and mushroom!!

Have some kept for breakfast too.

Rossco

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Looks very tasty!!!

Rossco

[thezaman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

i had questions on my dough and jay stepped in with a recipe that i used that made a delicious pizza. it had all of the qualities i wanted. light with a airy crust. he had me do a overnight preferment. enclosed are pics

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Hi Dino - great to hear from you and thanks for the positive comments and ongoing contibution to the quest for "perfect" dough!!

At times I thought that I may have been a little too verbose in my commentary and questions but on reflection saw a possible benefit to others as you have now confirmed. What it is in effect doing is pooling all the experience in the group and developing a collaborative "best practice" product. It is of course evolutionary in nature so best to label it a "work in progress" project - that's what keeps it exciting!

I would like to make a special acknowledgement to Jay whose tireless feedback has undoutedly been the driving force behind this and other detailed threads. I have learned more on dough making in the past 4 weeks than in the past 7 years since I first got my WFO. I believe that this excellent outcome highlights the value of forums such as these which are driven by the generous contributions of others.

Rossco

Hi Rossco, I've been following your thread here and am learning lots from your dough adventures. Sounds like you are on the right track. Can't wait to hear how these pizzas bake.
I've picked up so many pointers on your thread alone. Yeast amounts, proof times, mixing and kneading times... it's all much appreciated by me. Cheers, Dino

[Dino_Pizza]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Hi Rossco, I've been following your thread here and am learning lots from your dough adventures. Sounds like you are on the right track. Can't wait to hear how these pizzas bake.
I've picked up so many pointers on your thread alone. Yeast amounts, proof times, mixing and kneading times... it's all much appreciated by me. Cheers, Dino

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Yes Mitch - caused much frustration that's for sure! I had been trying to find out what the connection was that produced "floppy" dough for a while as it was really was a problem. The pizzas that I made were OK but the handling was so tricky that I had difficulty even lifting the base from the granite work area to the peel. I had to pretty much drag it so that it didn't deform too much.

Jay - bubbles are there but only in small quantities. The bubbles themselves are quite large though. I will also drop the yeast down a bit to .5 - this has been suggested to prevent overproofing. Will spray balls with oil in future too.

So overall I am pleased with the results - very glad that the floppy issue was solved.

Thanks for the feedback - hopefully now I can start perfecting the process!!

Rossco

[texassourdough]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Bubbles in dough is what makes it grow. I presume you mean a big bubble or two. They happen. No biggie. Dry skin is not good - part of why most instructions call for oiling the balls or spraying them with oil - to decrease water loss.

30.7 C is 87 F which is about 10 degrees hotter than optimal. That would suggest you would want to start with cool water - about 10 oF cooler than normal if you were doing the same thing. Take a break, use cooler water, or both. Ideal temp at the end of the kneading is about 76 to 78. Your dough will proof way faster at 30 C.

Jay

[Mitchamus]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

geez Rossco - no wonder you were having issues!

glad you got it sorted!

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Good point Jay ... and yes and the dough was heated up when I tested it - to about 30.7 C. I read somewhere (think in Rhinehart's book) that you should use ice cold water for the mixing so maybe that will address the heating issue. I will definitely go with your suggestion of a break in between kneading next time around though.

Have just checked the balls and they appear to have a (dryish) skin on them and they have expanded quite well. I did notice some bubbles in the dough last night - is this normal?

Anyhow, this is a far cry from the floppy texture that I had before. I am really interested to see how the stretch goes this evening.

Rossco

[texassourdough]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

A problem with KA mixers is that they heat the dough at about 1 degree F per minute and tend to overwork the dough if one is not careful which is part of the reason many mixing instructions using mixers call for only a three to five minute first mixing, a five minute rest, and then a couple of minutes to finish it.

You may be overkneading and overoxidizing the dough which also makes it firm. But if it gives you the dough you want, go for it!

Jay

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Update:
======

I upped the mix quantity to 4 balls (was doing 2 in the past) as it appears that the KA didn't knead the small amount, just slapped it around the bowl a bit with it stuck to the hook - giving the appearance of kneading.

So, with a larger quantity of mix and a bit of gluten flour added as well, I autolysed for 30 mins and then kneaded with the hook for 10 mins. The result was a very firm dough and I believe that it will be suitable for stretching after an overnight proofing.

So it would seem that the problem that caused the dough to be too soft and floppy was that it wasn't kneaded correctly - if at all. So clearly, and as has been pointed out before, kneading produces firmness. Whilst I believed that I had correctly kneaded the dough - this obviously wasn't the case. So hopefully that is problem solved!!

What I plan to do now is a batch (4 balls worth) of dough without adding any additional gluten flour and see what the firmness of the dough looks like after say 8 - 10 mins of kneading. It may indeed turn out to be firm enough on its own...

Rossco

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

As always - great advice thanks Jay .. you patience is appreciated!!!

I guess my moving to higher hydration was because the FB video looked VERY runny indeed. There is a shot of the mixer in the FB book and the dough is curling around the hook!! I am just a bit concerned that dropping the hydration - but I will to see what happens. What do you reckon is a good hydration rate to aim for?

I have tried several other flours with a high protein content (is that the same as gluten??).

I experience the same thin spots when working slowly flat on the bench - lifting it up slightly was just a test of its robustness and I don't do it that way as a rule..

Preparing for my next round ...

Tks again Jay...

Rossco

[texassourdough]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Hi Rossco!

The flour dictates the hydration but there is no magic "Caputo 00 should be mixed at 67%" for there is too much variation. You have to learn to adjust the hydration to the flour you have - and to some extent the results you want. No one starts by saying I want to make 70% hydration bread and uses that to choose the flour. And...while adding 67 grams of water to 100 grams of dough results in a dough that calculates as 67 % hydration the amount of water IN the flour can totally make the calculation meaningless and the dough may really be 70 or 72%. You have to adjust the hydration to give the dough you want, not simply mechanically add a fixed amount of water to a fixed amount of flour.

Kneading affects the dough and while time is what you hear people talk about - especially in mixers, kneading time is not a very good measure of gluten development or what the dough will be like. It should be noted that both flour choice and hydration will affect the amount of kneading necessary in a commercial mixer. But autolyzing has an effect on needed time. Note: Higher hydration doughs tend to require more mixing but again, it is SO variable depending on how you actually work with the dough. Mixer type is also a big factor with spiral mixers making much nicer dough than the Kithenaid style C hook.

To my knowledge yeast has no effect other than the amount added affects the rising time with very minor texture impact. Fresh vs. instant has no impact on texture but does affect taste slightly.

The answer to finding the combo you want lies finding the balance of flour, hydration, and handling that give the results you want. The hydration is almost certainly too high for the flour you are using (unless your kneading is way off). It sounds like you want dough that requires a higher protein content.

But I am forced to ask why you feel you have to hand shape the pie off the bench. What do you think you gain by that? (other than thin spots)

A lot of us like soft doughs and the crust it gives. Those doughs demand careful handling and that takes experience. And, as I have said before...it is a lot easier to learn to handle dough that is lower hydration. And lower hydration should give you qualities closer to what you say you want. (Autolyzing and a couple of stretch and folds will help too).

Good Luck!
Jay

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Latest dough results:
================

The dough was very nice to handle on the bench. It stretched quite well and wasn't as prone to "going thin in spots" as the predecessors were.

On the second pizza I slipped my hand carefully underneath leaving the bulk of the pizza's weight on the bench. When I slowly lifted the pizza up to start the back hand stretch technique. It was obviuosly too soft to do that with and started looking a bit thin in spots so I had to abandon the process and finished the stretch on the bench.

I have asked the question before, but may have done so in a convoluted manner so I will try again...

What is the correlation (if any) between "firmness" that is, rubberyness of the dough that won't stretch too thin when say the dough is lifted off the bench on the back of the hand and the following:

a. hydration
b. flour type
c. yeast amount
d. kneading time

So, what I am trying to achieve is to make the dough more rubbery/firm. what I am asking is HOW do I get the texture more firm/rubbery so it can be stretched on the back of my hand. It must be possible to get it more firm as when I have rekneaded dough in the past it goes like solid rubber and needs be be rested before use (I don't do that in the pizza dough preparations BTW).

Hopefully someone will be able to shed light on this very pressing problem...

Rossco

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Latest batch of dough made this evening as follows:

66% hydration
Fresh yeast (double instant grams) activated for 10 mins in warm water.
Will sit in the fridge overnight, ready for some action tomorrow.

Will this be the dough that I have been chasing for so long now?

Rossco