Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

[texassourdough]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Ah, Rossco!

Your experiments are consistent with what I would expect. My attitude toward Caputo is "get the handling over with as soon as possible" except for the actual formation of the pie and the dough should be really relaxed when you do that IMO.

Keep after 'em!
Jay

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Hello Jay - welcome back!

The practice of kneading dough after the fridge proofing was just an experiment and I no longer do it.

Also, I now autolyse the whole amount of flour - added in about 3 stages over about 2 minutes. The initial 70% was also an experiment to see if there would be any noticeable improvement in the dough quality (there wasn't).

Oh yes ... Caputo .... if only!!!!

Rossco

[texassourdough]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Hi Rossco!

I have been on the road and away...I am confused by a couple of your comments. At some point in this conversation it seemed to indicate that you kneaded the dough with the KA after you got it out the fridge. That would be BAD for the dough would tighten enormously. At another point you indicate you are autolyzing only 70% of the dough. That again means you have to knead the dough to get to your final mix. Both are IMO bad for they overwork the dough. With Caputo I firmly believe you get better results if you ball the dough before you refrigerate/retard. If you wait the dough will not relax properly. (You can easily do this with AP, it can be balled late, but... I know people do it with Caputo but...)

Good to be back!
Jay

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Thanks very much for the feedback Stan.

I'll add a bit more kneading time with a 2 min rest before windowpaning during the next session. I did find the windowpane a bit sticky and uncoopertaive at first.

I'm sure that I will notice a difference with your tweaks.

Rossco

[Stan]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Rossco,

I was thinking about you yesterday when I made a batch of pizza dough. I used King Arthur flour and kneaded in my 6 qt. KA.

I mixed everything together except the salt for a 20 minute autolyse, and then I kneaded on speed 2 for around 8 minutes. It was well after the stage that I stop kneading bread. I let the kneaded dough rest in the bowl for 10 minutes after kneading, and then I did the windowpane test. The pane should be extremely sheer and almost transparent. Letting the dough rest for 10 before doing the test gives the gluten structure a chance to relax.

Anyway, when I finally shaped pizzas the dough was soft and fully extensible. No ripping whatsoever.

I'm starting to believe that a fully developed (windowpane) dough at around 65% hydration just plain works as long as you have a good enough autolyse period and enough rest.

Next time you make it, knead for another minute and then let it rest before you stretch. Sounds like you're well on your way.

Stan

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Tried another batch today and kneaded in the KA for about 6 mins. I stopped to check the glute via the "windowpane test" and found that I could get the sheet quite thin - though it did tear where my hands were holding it (fingers poked through).

Does that sound about right for the windowpage test? Could the 6 mins be too long for kneading with the hook? I did vary the speed fast/slow along the way. Will test the dough with a quick electric oven bake tomorrow.

Rossco

[Dino_Pizza]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Roscco,
I made a batch last night and will be making pizza's later today. But, because of doing so much bread baking reading lately (not to mention FB posts) I added the yeast to the flour and water, paddle mixed 2 minutes, autolyse 30 min. THEN added the salt to that before KitAid machining for 2-3 minutes, just to make sure the salt dissolved and incorporated. I'm not sure if the yeast alone for a half hour helps with gluten development or not but I'll see tonight. My 1st 2 pizza experiences also stretched thin and occasionally got knuckle punctured. Since then, I use the basic recipe for 4 dough balls not 5 so they are slightly thicker and since it's a very wet dough, I've been really generous with flouring as I form them and that seems to help.
Also, if my dough ball looks like dead hockey puck, I refold them and use them 1/2-1 hour later in the process and they come to life again with good structure leading me to believe as you've said, sometimes a bit more kneading/folding is required for better gluten strength.
How did your pizza crust taste? I'll let you know what happens to mine tonight. -Dino

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Next batch...

OK, I made a quick batch to see if I could improve the texture of the dough so it didn't stretch very thin in patches...

Method:

Made dough according to the FB recipe but with 3 key differences. The first was that I used 70% of the dough for autolyse and allowed the process to occur for 30 (not 20) minutes. Secondly, only water and flour used for autolyse with the yeast and salt being added with the balance of the flour. Lastly, Dino's suggestion of using 50% yeast for overnight fermentation.

Dough was placed in the fridge for 12 hours and removed 3 hours before use.

Results:

Dough was very floppy and sticky and didn't have much "body" to it. When trying to stretch the dough over the back of my hands the dough overstretched immediately and I had to spend some time pushing it back together.

One thing I did think that may have reduced the strength of the dough was the amount of kneading that I did. I only went for a short time (about 3 mins perhaps) so maybe this needs a bit more time. The rationale for the short kneading time was to minimise the "handling" that others have suggested but maybe I need to increase this by a few minutes to strengthen the dough. Earlier batches that I have kneaded for longer got quite tough so somewhere between those two times may be the sweet spot I am chasing.

Another thing that I have been wondering is if I should autolyse ALL of the flour. The FB recipe suggests 80% but maybe 100% could be better so that all the flour involved gets hydrated equally. I will still continue to add the salt and yeast later though unless it will not mix properly to the autolysed dough.

I would be keen to get thoughts and comments on this as there may have been other things that I could have overlooked.

Rossco

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Updated ...

After the flour/salt only autolyse and the overnight proofing the dough was pretty good though it did stretch unevenly in a few places.

Going on Dino's guidelines I should have reduced the amount of yeast used in the process. Unfortunaltely I used the normal 3 grams so perhaps that affected the dough texture. Next batch of dough is to be made tomorrow night and I will definitely reduce the yeast to 2 grams. Hopefully this will find the "magic spot" I am chasing...

Rossco

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Thanks very much for that valuable info Dino.

I already made the dough for tomorrow by the time I got your message, but fortunately I used 70% of the flour plus the full water amount only for autolyse. I kept the salt/yeast back and mixed it with the remaining flour and already the mix is looking better. Didn't cut down on the yeast for overnight fermentation but will do so next time for sure...

Looking forward to seeing your pizza contribution - I'm sure it's going to be excellent!! Don't forget to post pics for inspiration!!!!

Rossco

[Dino_Pizza]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Rossco, there's some good info in that thread. Yes, I've done it that way the last 2 times. It seems weird to add the salt and yeast after autolyse but it works. Leaving out the yeast and the salt is important so the that the dough turns smooth and extensible while it sits, otherwise the yeast would activate and the salt would do its "tightening thing" too soon.

Oh, I just realized another important thing I do: if you let the dough retard overnight (I do every time) you MUST cut the yeast by 25%-50%. 3gr yeast works only if you are making the pizza that same day. My balls got huge (insert Bevis and Buthead giggle here) the first time I retarded and did not stretch out into nice pies.

Also, I've always stuck to the 65% hydration and made multiples of the 500gr flour/300gr h2o, 10gr salt and no more than 2 gr ADY yeast recipe with an occasional extra dip of my hands in more water to increase hydration when I'm feeling reckless and bold. I use Caputo Blue bag, the huge one they sell here and the dough is like silk.

Your thread here's got me all worked up over pizza again so I'll be making a batch for a Saturday firing. thanks, Dino

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Hey Dino ....

Interesting info. I have only been allowing the mix to autolyse for 20 mins so that could perhaps explain the lack of strength in the earlier batches. I'll crank that time up to 30 mins and see how that goes. Doing a batch tonight so good opportunity to experiment...

On that point - what % flour do you mix with the water to get the "runny mix" for optimum autolyse to occur? The FB recipe talks of 80% but I find that a bit dry. My thinking would be more around 60 - 70% does that sound right?

Also, I have done some quick reading about autolyse and it suggests that ONLY the flour and water are mixed together (not salt/yeast) before autolyse, but I think in the FB recipe it says that all ingredients must be added BEFORE the autolyse process. If that is the case perhaps that is the cause of my initial "tearing" dough problem when doing the stretching?

Some notes on autolyse from another thread: http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f19/...water-454.html

Rossco

[Dino_Pizza]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Rossco, I'm pretty sure dmun was just referring to the "re-kneading" question and he makes a good point about handling them as little as possible. But I personally let them come to complete room temperature and then watch them relax, and actually start to expand a bit. That's the perfect time to form them. I find they have to completely loose their refrigerator chill or they are difficult.

Also, there seems to be good info here about not over working the mixing of the initial dough. Let the dough form its strength thru autolyse which I do for a at least 30 minutes after a minute of initial mixing in my kitchen aid.

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Goodness me - did I ask that rather ambiguous question????

So, by "slight warming" do you mean that the dough should still be a bit cool and not at room temperature?

I have definitely cut down on overall handling which seems to have greatly improved the malleability of the dough. How long do you knead you dough overall then at each stage of the process?

I will rethink the cutting and preparation the following day part in view of your comments...

Rossco

[dmun]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Just a quick question on that ... do you re knead the balls again before using them??

The less you handle the dough right before baking, the better your results will be. Out of the fridge, slight warming, out of container onto the floured bench, gently flatten and round, stretch out skin. Re-kneeding or more than the minimum shaping will seriously effect dough handling.