Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Yes I am kneading with a KA mixer.

Is is pretty much at room temperature when I am working with it (1.5 hrs out of the fridge).

I can stretch the dough but it goes thin in the centre and doesn't stretch uniformly. I end up having to push it togetherfrom the sides to get it right. If I pick the udge of the dough up (like in the DB video) it stretches way too much.

Weather has been pretty consistent here - although yesterday it was quite a bit warmer. If it is walmer is more/less water required?

Rossco

[Stan]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Sounds to me like you haven't found a happy kneading medium. A 65% hydration dough, in most weathers, will appear smooth when kneaded enough in a KA mixer (it's what I use). Mixing on speed 2 with a dough hook generally takes me less than 5 minutes (I pre-mix for autolyse with a wooden spoon). Be sure your dough passes the window pane test before you proof it. You should be able to get a fairly transparent membrane once you've worked the dough enough, but it should still be loose. It may not even clear the bottom of the bowl. Here in Florida with 90 degree weather and 80% humidity, things tend to stay sticky. If the dough stays too sticky, give it some folds before you rush off an add more flour. If you're using a lot of bench four, you're adding mass but not gluten.

When you take the dough out of the mixer, it should feel fairly loose. Once it rises/proofs, it should feel soft and stretchy without being sticky.

I really think you just haven't found the Cinderella spot in your kneading yet. Remember, pizza dough isn't bread dough. It's stretched much thinner than most bread dough can go. You want strong, extensible gluten. Overknead and you'll lose extensibility.

[KiwiPete]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

In my experience, the type of flour makes a big difference. I think the FB videos were done using Caputo flour. And I think there is a BIG difference between Caputo and pretty much everything else.

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

That sounds about right Pete - though I have seen some of the local pizza places stretching dough which looks as smooth at the Caputo stuff in the video - but which likely isn't Caupo as Caputo is not freely available here in Oz. I am sure the guys aren't pay $140 /25kg without shipping to get it from Sydney so they must be pursuing other local flour options.

The Weston Milling flour gives me a great base, and I am sure that with a bit of effort I will be able add that slight bit off texture that will give me the "perfect" product. The cutting/shaping the following day I think will make a big difference and I will get to try this on Tuesday night as we are getting a friend over so I have an excuse to make some more dough. I am getting the "oh no NOT AGAIN..." line from my wife when she sees me cranking up the KA to make, *yet another* batch of dough ... in search of the perfect pizza.

Addiction .. what addiction????????

Rossco

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Thanks Stan - some interesting points for consideration there...

I am starting off the next round of dough with the focus on less handling. As was demonstrated by the last batch - it was VERY floppy so I am thinking that if I handle/knead it just a bit more it should firm up that bit more for perfect handling.

I am also keeping the bench flour to an absolute minimum and just apply a thin film by using a shaker with a gauze insert which effectively sifts the flour going onto the bench.

I've researched the "window pane" concept so will give that a go to. In one of the FB videos on youtube I saw a guy using some sort of electronic device with a probe to test the dough. Not sure what that was but it seemed to give some kind of indication as to the "readiness" of the dough.

More (hopefully positive) results tomorrow ...

Rossco

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

UPDATE...

The dough was much better than before but needed about 2 hrs to get to room temperature.

It stretched much better than before. Still not quite as good as the FB video but perhaps a bit more standing will get it spot on.

Sample pic below...


Rossco

[Mitchamus]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

here's another 2 cents...

From the sounds of it, your problem was not enough water, and maybe over-kneading.

glad to see you've cracked it though...

Another tip - snap lock sandwich bags are great for letting dough balls proof in.

I make my dough balls the day before, put them in the bags and leave them in the fridge overnight. The bags allow you to pile them up, and you don't have to worry about them drying out or sticking together.

I leave them in the bags right up until I start shaping them - just turn the bag inside out and the dough will come out.

I let them come up to room temp for at least an hour before I use them though.

I find 300g is the best dough ball size for me.

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Ziplocks sound like a good idea Mitchamus...

Just a quick question on that ... do you re knead the balls again before using them??

Rossco

[Mitchamus]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

No I just let it plop out of the bag onto a well floured bench... dust them on top and just start shaping them.
(by the sounds of it I have the same flour shaker as you with the stainless mesh)

They need some encouragement to come out, next time I'll try a 1/2 second spray of canola in the bag first, but it's worth it for the convenience...

They are very sticky when they come out of the bags, since they haven't been dusted with flour since initial shaping, and have lost zero moisture.

You really want to work them as little as possible at this stage.

they'll be more of a blob than a ball, but turn out fine.

cheers,
Mitch.

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Sounds good - must say I have a terible problem finding a spot for the tupperwares in the fridge as they're so bulky.

BTW what flour are you using?

Rossco

[Mitchamus]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

I'm using Manildra pizza flour.

[Dutchoven]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Rossco
Glad you have a handle on it. Originally I think it was the intermediate kneading that was over-developing the gluten. If/When you scale your dough just quickly make it round and then pop it into the proofing/resting container. It is possible to fold the dough about 30-45 minutes into the bulk fermentation to add a bit more gluten development but it is not something we do. Always better to handle it as little as possible. Incidentally, do you take the temp of your dough coming out of the mixer. A good temp in in the 72-75F range...at least for us it is.
All the best!
Dutch

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Thanks for that Dutch...

Just to claify my process... according to the FB video the guy left the dough proofing in a large ball (not yet divided into smaller balls) overnight and cut and prepared pizza size balls the following day.

I did the same and when I got home last night, I took it out of the fridge and let it warm up for about 40 mins. It was still quite cold but I kneaded it for a few minutes, divided into 180 gram balls, twisted it for surface tension and left it covered on a marble slab for 2 hrs.

Results as mentioned were pretty good but I think that it may have needed some more time to proof/warm up on the counter as the second pizza was prepared about 30 mins after the first one and it stretched much better than the first one.

The thing is though, I would definitely prefer to proof overnight in the fridge with pizza-sized balls as it takes too much time waiting for the big ball to reach room temperature, then another 2 hrs to rest before baking.

No I don't check the temp of the dough - should I be doing this as part of the process??

Rossco

[dmun]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Just a quick question on that ... do you re knead the balls again before using them??

The less you handle the dough right before baking, the better your results will be. Out of the fridge, slight warming, out of container onto the floured bench, gently flatten and round, stretch out skin. Re-kneeding or more than the minimum shaping will seriously effect dough handling.

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Goodness me - did I ask that rather ambiguous question????

So, by "slight warming" do you mean that the dough should still be a bit cool and not at room temperature?

I have definitely cut down on overall handling which seems to have greatly improved the malleability of the dough. How long do you knead you dough overall then at each stage of the process?

I will rethink the cutting and preparation the following day part in view of your comments...

Rossco