Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

[tgm]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Jay,

We use almost the same procedure only we room temperature proof for 6-8 hrs. prior to using. Your correct in handling the dough just before putting it in the oven as the results are near perfect everytime. The less handling the better.
When we do take the balls and form them they are silky smooth and you can stretch all you want without losing shape. Other than availability, I don't know why you go through all the trouble to use other flour, other than Caputo. It's just not worth all the hassle.

Personally, I think all the heated discussions about yeast amount, proof times, autolyze times etc. are around just to keep the discussion board going. It doesn't need to be this complicated guys, really. Use the Caputo flour, follow the very simple recipe and you will be rewarded with perfect crust everytime.

Four years ago when we put our WFO in we new nothing about making pizza. We followed the instructions given to us by Roberto ( yes THAT Roberto) and we have yet to scrap a batch of dough or make an inedible crust. Use the best ingredients and you will be rewarded with a good pizza that everyone will enjoy.

Good Luck,

Tom in PA

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Thanks for that description Jay - definitely makes sense. That is pretty much how I have been doing it lately. I have started using spray olive oil to coat the proofing container and that has helped me preserve the shape of the pizza and minimise unnecessary handling to get it out to start stretching.

Tom - I believe that there are many of us here in Australia who would undoubtedly use Caputo, BUT for the fact that the $160 per 25 kg delivered price currently makes it uneconomical. Until this changes I for one will have to be satisfied with some of the (very good) local pizza flours that sell for around $25 per 25kg and give good results. There is another thread on this very topic raging away at the moment...

Rossco

[texassourdough]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Hi Tom!

As you know, the key is in the retard and 6-8 hours is enough to make a big difference. I prefer to make the dough the day before just to have less to do on cooking day and I think it gives a small improvement but...small improvements are almost always personal taste.

I also agree that pizza dough need not be complex. Pizza is far less demanding than lean sourdough (assuming you want big holes and gorgeous, golden crust) where hydration, mixing and proof times are far more critical. (Note: I am not saying there isn't an optimum for pizza, but rather that IMO the acceptable range is not as tight.)

Thanks for the comments!
Jay

[tgm]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Jay,

You are correct it's just personal preferences. I have also made a batch the day before just to save on same day work when we are having a party and with the Caputo it turns out very well. I doubt any of our guests would even know the difference as for most it's their first experience tasting wood fired pizza.
I feel sorry for the blokes down under not being able to buy the Caputo for a reasonable price. Looks like a business opportunity to me for someone to get a container load and distribute accordingly.

Thanks,

Tom in PA

[Stan]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Rossco,

When you finally get your sourdough culture up and running, I want you to try the following:

1. Do the math for a 65% hydration dough with around 2.7% salt.
2. Feed your starter until it's mature and frothy. You'll need enough starter for around 20% of your recipe's weight of WATER.
3. Once the starter is fully awake, dissolve it in all the water and add all the flour. Stir and let rest for autolyse for around 20 minutes.
4. After the rest, add the salt and machine knead for at least 8 minutes. The dough should look satiny and smooth. Let it rest for 10 minutes after kneading before you windowpane it. If it fails the test, knead more, rest more, test more.
5. Once the dough passes the windowpane test, cover it and let it rest at room temperature for at least 12 hours. No refrigerator, no touching, no peeking. At least 12 hours with that tiny bit of dissolved, activated starter.
6. After your 12-18 hour fermentation, pull the dough out of the bowl, knead briefly, portion it, and ball it. It should be soft and sticky, and you should go easy on the flour.
7. Proof these balls for at around 3 hours. They may bubble, they may not. They shouldn't smell strongly of sourdough, and they won't double in size. If everything's ok, they'll just kind of slump on themselves.
8. After proofing, stretch, shape, dress, and bake.

I got that procedure from pizzamaking.com when I was building my sourdough starter. It yields a dough that's very extensible, soft, crisp, and tender inside. I can use King Arthur flour or Caputo or whatever else. As long as the hydration is right and the starter is active, it's fairly fail proof.

I don't know much about the genesis of the Forno Bravo recipe, but my gut tells me that the time in the refrigerator could be messing with you. If you're growing too much bacteria/acid, the gluten structure will suffer. Also, if you're not fully autolysing, fully kneading, or overproofing, things will be weird. Pizza dough needs more kneading than bread, and it needs to remain wet and loose. Once your starter gets going, try the steps above. I think you'll be literally floored by the results.

Good luck,
Stan

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

... I doubt any of our guests would even know the difference as for most it's their first experience tasting wood fired pizza...

I second that - most of the guests I have around offer very positive feedback (though they have to or else no future invite!!). The thing is that they are probably used to Dominos or Pizza Hut "pizzas" so anything would really be a step in the right direction!!!!

Rossco

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Rossco,

When you finally get your sourdough culture up and running, I want you to try the following...

Thanks very much Stan - my starter is looking pretty good (day 4 today) and will be transfessing it to another container and adding normal white flour. This info will definitely come in handy - will report back on the results...

Rossco

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Made a new batch of dough ... this time with 67% hydration. It does sound extreme but I thought that as there was some talk about Aussie flour being "hard" etc I may have been too dry at 65%. The dough looks VERY close to the FB video and it handles very well. Here's hoping that this will be the sweet spot I am after.

Pizza on the menu for lunch!!!

Rossco

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Outcome:
=======

May have been a bit too wet (base not cooked through completely) so may scale back to 66% and see what happens. It may have just been that the electric oven that I used wasn't hot enough or something. Really needs to be checked in the WFO.

Observations:
==========

The dough handled quite well during the stretching process though I experienced the same issue as I have had all along:

The dough gets thinner in certain spots and doesn't uniformly stretch.

In order to fix this problem I need to push the thin areas back together and try and spread dough from other areas to that spot to strengthen the base.

Million dollar question: What causes thin spots in the dough when stretching??? I have tried out pretty much every permutation possible for dough making and still that problem persists, albeit at a lesser or greater degree.

Enlighten me O wise ones!!!!

Rossco

[Stan]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

The million dollar answer:

Assuming your dough is correct and the gluten net is fully extensible, your shaping procedure can thin the dough unevenly. How are you shaping?

Stan

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

I stretch flat on a granite surface by working my way around the edge stretching small sections at a time and working in a circular manner.

I'm wondering if in doing that the thin spots are caused by pockets of gas caused from the yeast that maybe burst during the handling process?

Rossco

[texassourdough]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Hi Rossco!

I don't think your dough failed to cook through because you had wet dough. I think you simply didn't have the stone/hearth hot enough and/or undercooked it. Wetness of the dough is not a factor. I can bake 74 % dough and have it cook through. It's far more about time and temp than water.

Dough shaping is a skill that will evolve. Bread is the same way. When something bugs you enough you will find a solution that works and the thin spots are a good example. It has far more to do with how you handle the dough than the dough itself. IF your dough is wet it is less strong and more sensitive to improper handling which is why I tend to suggest people start with 62% hydration dough until they get comfortable with it and then move up slowly.

I have been to a lot of highly rated WFO pizzarias and a large number of them have a very simple approach to forming the pie that I have never seen in video and that makes what I consider fabulous pies.

Take a sheet pan or jelly roll pan and put about a cup of flour in it - quite a bit - and spread it around. Take the ball and drop it on the flour to coat it. Flip it over to coat the other side. Flatten it gently to disk maybe an inch thick. Then using your finger tips start punching it down around the outside edge and work your way to the middle - poking and gently stretching (but poking more than stretching). Flip it over again at some point. A 250 gram ball should make about a 8 to 9 inch pizza that way that has an uneven suface of dimples with lots of bubbles. You can stretch it a bit if you WANT to at that point and get it up to maybe 10 inches with no danger of thin spots. NOTE: the dough need never leaves the bed of flour until it is moved to the peel except for the flipping over. Now...there are some more advanced techniques that get slightly more refined finish but try this approach and the weird New Zealand shaped pies should be a thing of the past. And you can handle really wet, sticky dough this way.

With a good coating of flour you can also fold the dough over on itself to pick it up with out it sticking!

You will want to knock off the excess flour at some point, but...I like the pies I make this way! Not as exciting as flinging dough in the air or stretching over the back of your hands but very reliable - especially when you have troublesome dough.

Good Luck!
Jay

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Thanks Jay .... Will be cranking the WFO up on Sat night so will modify my technique and see how that goes.

So to clarifiy, how do I get the dough to be a bit more "rubbery" for lack of a better word. My dough I think is still a bit too floppy? More/less water ... less yeast?

BTW - New Zealand shaped pizzas sound scary ... that would mean 2 skinny 30cm x 8cm ones!!!!!!!

Rossco

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Latest batch of dough made this evening as follows:

66% hydration
Fresh yeast (double instant grams) activated for 10 mins in warm water.
Will sit in the fridge overnight, ready for some action tomorrow.

Will this be the dough that I have been chasing for so long now?

Rossco

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Latest dough results:
================

The dough was very nice to handle on the bench. It stretched quite well and wasn't as prone to "going thin in spots" as the predecessors were.

On the second pizza I slipped my hand carefully underneath leaving the bulk of the pizza's weight on the bench. When I slowly lifted the pizza up to start the back hand stretch technique. It was obviuosly too soft to do that with and started looking a bit thin in spots so I had to abandon the process and finished the stretch on the bench.

I have asked the question before, but may have done so in a convoluted manner so I will try again...

What is the correlation (if any) between "firmness" that is, rubberyness of the dough that won't stretch too thin when say the dough is lifted off the bench on the back of the hand and the following:

a. hydration
b. flour type
c. yeast amount
d. kneading time

So, what I am trying to achieve is to make the dough more rubbery/firm. what I am asking is HOW do I get the texture more firm/rubbery so it can be stretched on the back of my hand. It must be possible to get it more firm as when I have rekneaded dough in the past it goes like solid rubber and needs be be rested before use (I don't do that in the pizza dough preparations BTW).

Hopefully someone will be able to shed light on this very pressing problem...

Rossco