Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

[dmun]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

OK, I was about to ask what leoparding was but thought you all would laugh at me and say something like "It's when you brush the dough with leopard oil"

leoparding

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Disappointing Session
================

The batch of dough I made on Wednesday night and baked on Friday night seemed to have lost its texture. I made two of the four balls and after struggling with the poor dough binned the remainder of the dough and started again. The dough actually seemed wet so maybe the lid of the container didn't seal properly.

I substituted a small amount of VWG with the pizza mix and used very cold water (64%). I autolysed for 20 mins and found the dough to be like firm rubber. I added the yeast and salt after that and then did a 5 + 5 minute knead in the KA and it remained as hard as Goodyear rubber.

After an overnight fridge rest, I took the balls out of the fridge about 3 hrs before baking. The texture was still very rubbery and I had to really fight the "spring back" to get the pizza shaped. To top it all - after I got the fire to around 400 Deg C, the pizzas burned underneath...

What a disasterous session this was...

Won't be making any more dough till next Tuesday (catering for 12 work colleagues on Wednesday). Hopefully that round will produce better results!!!

Rossco

[arevalo53anos]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Rossco:

I did not read the entire thread.
At those temperatures, try anyone of the recipes below

Same day pizza dough

F= 100%
W= 60%
PF= 4 to 8%
S= 3.5% (3 in cold days)
Y= little less than 1g

6 hours puntata (big dough)
4 to 5 hours staglio (individual pizza dough)

24 hs pizza dough

F=100
W=63
PF=1.5
S=3 or 3.5

2 to 4 hs puntata
30 hs staglio (first 24 hs resting in the fridge)

Granted!

Luis

[texassourdough]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Hi Guys!

I am back from two weeks in Costa Rica. Good to see Thezaman got some great dough! And you too Heliman/Mark, but you need to find some consistency. You made some beautiful dough but you don't seem to be able to repeat it and getting dough repeatable is the first really key step to consistently good pizza IMO.

Glad to be home and online!
Jay

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Latest update...

I made a batch of dough (12 x 270 gram balls) for a party I had yesterday. I was very happy with the results this time. Standard recipe, but using room temp water, 65% hydration ... and I "read" the dough in the bottom of the KA bowl. I was too wet to start with so I added some flour with the shaker and gradually brought the dough up to the point where it no longer stuck to the bottom of the bowl. No added VWG was added.

Testing the temp of the dough at the end of the 8 minute knead gave a reading of 29 - slightly high but probably not too much damage caused.

Overnight fermentation and dough balls rested to room temp for at least 2 hours before use. Overall results were a crisp and chewy crust - very happy.

Things that I would do differently next time:

1. Lower the water temp slighty (to about 23 C);

2. Leave dough in dough ball to bulk ferment. Balls made a few hrs before use to better maintain the texture of the pizzas.

Have a party scheduled for Saturday night so will make some more dough tomorrow night. Things are really progressing now.

As a side note - I cooked another pizza from leftover dough this evening. I re-folded the original dough yesterday evening which had puffed up. It immediately took on a firmer texture and by this evening the dough was really nice and smooth again. Just tested the electric pizza in the oven and the results were excellent!!! Pic attached.

Rossco

[scottz]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Hi Guys,
Have just finshed reading through this thread (took awhile!!) and have picked up some really good tips!! Will try letting the flour/water mix sit for 30mins instead of 20 and will try to let the balls sit in the fridge over night in the zip bags. One question I do have is there any of you that use a rolling tool with spikes on it after you stretch the dough and before you add your base sauce?? My wife bought it for me and I have seen a couple of wood fired places using them. If I dont use it my pizza has small bubbles through it when it comes out. Where if I use the tool it comes out flat. To be honest, I dont mind the bubbles!!! Does using this tool make much difference and does it affect the dough and the taste in anyway???

Cheers
Scott

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

I autolyse 20 mins only (based on Rhinehart's methodology)...
No spiker used myself - like you, don't mind a bit of puffing. I don't think the spiker affects taste but plenty of writings suggest that overnight fermentation does improve dough taste. I made a batch of dough using biga a few weks ago and the taste was amazing! It took on a kind of sweet flavour which appealed to me and it was quite subtle and didn't overpower the rest of the pizza. Worth experimenting though as different methods/flour etc ingredients will affect the pizza results.

BTW - have you used ""Defiance" brand baker's flour (available from Coles/Woolies)? I have found that it produces the best overall pizza results. It has 12% protein so is comparable to Caputo on that point. I am finishing a 25 Kg bag of Weston Milling pizza flour - blended with a high protein flour. This is a good combo but I will switch to baker's flour exclusively when the current stock is finished. Best place for pizza flours is Variety Foods in Bayswater. The owner Rod is great to deal with and has a good few flours to choose from.

Rossco

[texassourdough]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

The roller with spikes is called a "docker" and helps prevent the pie from making a pita...or being excessively bubbly. However, it is more commonly used on flatbreads than on pizza pies - especially wet, thin, WFO style doughs. With soft, wet, relaxed doughs the toppings are usually enough to prevent excess bubbles. If your dough is firmer, you may be overproofing/underhandling and getting big bubbles started before you make the pie. In my experience docking is more common on thicker, dryer doughs.

I don't use a rolling pin, but it is IMO worth trying it for you can make a totally uniform thin pie with no visible bubbles and the cornicione will still form from the residual CO2 and alcohol dissolved in the dough (assuming not pretty badly overproofed). The significance of trying this experiment is that it will demonstrate that you can handle the dough reasonably aggressively and not worry about the dough forming bubbles and rising.

Good Luck!
Jay

[trockyh]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Great thread....now I want pizza even more. I've been waiting since early Dec. for a new stone, but it's been back ordered on FB. They say it might be here in a week or two. I might have my WFO done by then.
I want to experiment making the dough before the big party we are having for my mom.
Thanks for all the info, I will see what works for me.

Cheers,
Tom

[scottz]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Thanks for that Jay, wasnt sure what it was called! The reason my wife bought one for me is because we quite often go to this micro brewery/casual resturant in Fremantle called 'Little Creatures' where they do really nice wood fired pizzas and very very very good beer!!!!! Last time I was there, I was watching them carefully as they were making the pizzas. They used no rolling pin and were stretching the dough by hand, They then tossed the dough (something I think you dont really need to do but does make people go "WOW!!"). Then they used the 'docker' before applying the base sauce. If I dont use the docker I find that there is the odd bubble or two in my base when the pizza is cooked and complete, and like I said before I actually dont mind this. I gives each pizza a different look!! But I am looking forward to making my next batch of dough and using all the advise on this thread. Will make sure I post pics when it is done!!!

Cheers
Scott

[texassourdough]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Hi Scott. If you try the rolling pin trick, don't roll off the edge of the dough. You roll the edges to the side, but not in front of or behind the rolling pin. If you roll off the far or close edge you will pinch the dough and it won't rise properly (It will be WAY thin). This can give really nice, uniform crust with no big bubbles in the central area.

I don't mine a few odd bubbles either.

I find slapping the dough from hand to hand does a good job of knocking the excess flour off (I use a lot of flour when forming the initial "disk" of dough), and does an amazingly good job of creating a uniform thin crust. Not as exciting as tossing but far less risky. I probably need to do a video to show what I mean!

BTW, I do sometimes use a docker when making flatbread. My decision depends on how thick the dough is with thicker doughs getting docked to prevent balloooning into a pita.

Good Luck!
Jay

[trockyh]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Hi Jay,
A video would be great. When can you get started on this project? Just kidding...kinda.

Tom

[scottz]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Thanks Jay,

The only reason I have been using a rolling pin is because I am still learning the art of stretching the dough....and when you have people waiting you just rolling them out! As soon as i get my dough perfected I will be stretching everyone!!!! I find to get a really nice crust that rises, I leave a gap of about 10 cms around the edge of the dough when I put on the base sauce. My little girl wants me to do cheese stuffed crust next for her so that should be intresting how it turns out!

[heliman]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

Yes Creatures is a great place and they make a good pizza too!! After Ruoccos and Siennas in Mt Lawley, they make the next best pizza in Perth. Like you I wanted to find out more about there process so got there early one day and saw a guy actually preparing the dough so had a chat to him. They have a dough proofing machine under the counter and use baker's flour (12%) something like the Defiance brand (don't waste your time with Molino Pizuti 00 - it's for making pasta). The recipe seemed to be the straightforward flour, water, years and salt mix. I didn't see the spiker in action but have seen it used elsewhere. They go very light on their toppings which I quite like too.

Rossco

[dmun]

Re: Silky, Stretchable Dough - How??????

They used no rolling pin and were stretching the dough by hand,

Rolling pins are for pitas and piecrusts.

They then tossed the dough (something I think you dont really need to do but does make people go "WOW!!")

That pretty much means they are using high protein flour and low hydration. Not that there's anything wrong with that per se: That's the dough that made Brooklyn famous.