Ciabatta

[texassourdough]

Re: Ciabatta

Hi Rossco!

Good luck with the thesis. I got word my rewrite was approved about two months ago (the defense was a year ago). I know what it can be like!

Dr. Jay

[heliman]

Re: Ciabatta

Hi Jay ..

Congrats on finishing your thesis!

Quite a bit of fiddling involved when doing a thesis - largely because no one seems to know (or won't tell) what is actually involved. Bit of a secret society it would seem, but, it was all free so one can't complain.

Will be doing the Jason recipe tomorrow - it sounds really great. Thanks Splat for providing the link...

[texassourdough]

Re: Ciabatta

Having been through the process, Rosso, I agree with your assessment - yet that is ultimately how it must be!

Don't glue yourself to the table with the ciabatta!
Jay

[heliman]

Re: Ciabatta

Perhaps the reason that the "apprenticeship" is characterised by pain and suffering is because this may well add to the "mysique" and "standing" of the degree in society. The notion of jumping through hoops is not unique to the PhD and I'm sure that it happens in other areas too. Not being a true academic myself, and having a peek inside the hallowed halls of this establishment has certainly raised a few more questions in my mind. In reality, just another thing to tick off as having been done I guess. But, that philosophical topic is for discussion at another time - this forum is for REAL issues like bread and pizza making...

Can't wait to have a go at the Jason bread - may have to dust of my recently retired KA for the occasion too. I did see that the recipe had a 4 hour turnaround - I believe Reinhart is slightly less than that (not sure though). One great tip I learned on reading the J recipe was that turning the dough over during proofing spreads the sought-after bubbles. Very useful to know....

[heliman]

Re: Ciabatta

OK test under way. It's busy trippling so I thought I would add some commentary on my observations. The KA didn't appreciate the exercise! The burning coil smell got quite strong and I had to stop after about 20 mins. I did question if this was not overkneaded as cautioned by many artisan bakers including Reinhart. There was a fair bit of sticky dough in the gears too which took a bit of cleaning to remove.

Seems like a bit of effort to me - particularly as I have to stand over the mixer all the time it is slapping away. The recipe also doesn't include any olive oil which I really like about Reinhart's brew. Anyway, keeping an open mind at this stage - maybe the end result will make all the hassle pale into insignificance... I do hope so...

[texassourdough]

Re: Ciabatta

The KA is not an endurance mixer. But as wet as the Jason ciabatta is, it shouldn't strain a healthy KA too badly. The odors probably indicate prior stress. The dough climbing is part of why I don't use mixers. I don't mind (actually prefer) doing it by hand and the KA is a pain. I may still buy an SP5 spiral but... I am not supermotivated.

Look forward to your appraisal! (But I do fear you may be underdeveloped..)
Jay

[heliman]

Re: Ciabatta

Verdict - very good indeed!!!

It was quite a warm evening so the proofing happened fairly quickly - getting to 3 x the size.

I baked the loaves in my newly acquired baguette trays, lined with baking paper, and the finished products exceeded my expectations.

Great spring (I did a quick water spray at the start to help things) and away it went. The baking time in the recipe seemed wrong and I rather went with Rhinehart's time which seemed a bit more realistic. Undoubtedly one of the nicer ciabattas I have made and in view of that I will probably try it again.

Thanks again splat for the referral!

[Dino_Pizza]

Re: Ciabatta

Wow, Rossco,
A 3x rise AND great oven spring!! I've never experienced that before. The loaf colors are great and the holes and crumb look even and large. How's it taste?

Is it because it is very wet dough that allows you to mix for that long and not over mix?

Do you think the baguette trays helped hold the sides a bit so it doesn't flatten in the oven?

BTW Jay: Do you do most of your mixing by hand ? You must have strong arm muscles . I guess if my 90 year old aunts can do it, I can too.

-Dino

[texassourdough]

Re: Ciabatta

Well, Rossco, it looks like my anticipation it was underdeveloped was false. The shape and oven spring suggest it was not (though the pans may have contributed. You actually got more oven spring than I prefer (I like my ciabatta thinner!)

I may be overreading the photos but the dough looks really wet and possibly a bit gummy. Did you take an internal temp? In my experience really wet doughs usually need to be pushed a bit harder (longer) in the oven to get the interior crumb up to temp. I really like the crust - looks great. Obviously I may be wrong. Only you can interpret whether more time would have been beneficial to the crumb.

I agree! It looks like a nice loaf!

Bake On!
Jay

[heliman]

Re: Ciabatta

Note sure of the science behind the process Dino but I am guessing that there may be some air trapped in the dough too which could add to the bubbles. The taste was really nice with the crust having a slightly crisp bite followed by a springy, soft inner texture. A very pleasant overall eating experience, with just the right amount of bubbles.

After a 20 min very rapid mix (KA hated the dough hook paticularly as it isn't balanced at high speed) the dough looked kind of like it was milk with gelatine in it but not really dough-like as we know it.

The baguette tray is a wonderful cooking aid in my view. It holds things nicely in shape whilst at the same time allows for the crust to develop a free-form look of its own. Purists however may prefer the flat look of the traditional ciabatta, as the one in the pan does, to some extent, appear more uniform.

Hello Jay - dough was perfectly cooked in my view and I did a temp test and got 211.8 (I think the recipe said around 205). I agree it may be difficult to see detail in the pics - I think I need to fiddle with the settings on camera to get better exposure.

Overall though, I think the bake was a success, but I am still concerned about hammering the KA and having to stand around it intently for 20 mins while it tours my counter top like some demented dough-laden bronco. Perhaps I should try this in my 20 Qt machine and see how it goes...

[heliman]

Re: Ciabatta

Just had some of this ciabatta for breakfast - still perfect and fresh like it was last night. Definitely another plus for this recipe.

Was just thinking too that this bread would be nice with some olives added. Do I just add a cup of chopped olives or something at some stage of the recipe? Will olives affect the rise?

[texassourdough]

Re: Ciabatta

Hi Rossco!

211.8 is probably too hot (or your thermometer may be off a bit - not unusual!) When I was discussing finishing temps above 209 with Peter Reinhart he figured my thermomer was off too!)... I find 205 is not enough for really wet doughs (say 70% plus hydration). They need higher temps to get the crumb right IMO. I routinely go 209-210 - at least on my thermometers!

Sounds like it was great! I kind of figured I was misreading the photos but...if you follow the 205 target in my experience it will be a bit gummy.

Bake on!
Jay

[egalecki]

Re: Ciabatta

I was wondering about your thermometer from previous discussions. My bread really is about right, moisture-wise, at 204-205. I think it would be a bit dry if I pushed it any further.

Or it could be that mine is off too.... but my new thermapen reads the same as the other one does.

The real thing is, we all probably have a different idea of what the crust, taste, and feel of bread OUGHT to be. I like a kind of thick crust (as long as it doesn't break my teeth) and I'll reheat a loaf to get some crunch. I love the taste of a well-browned crust! My favorite part of the loaf is the end. My son and I argue over them when he's home....

However, some of my other family members think the crust (even on a pizza, the horror!) is too chewy and don't eat it. They like the interior, all soft and light. They do like it better when I use an overnight recipe, though, for a white or whole wheat dough, since the flavor is better.

[texassourdough]

Re: Ciabatta

Hi Elizabeth!

Does 205 work for you for superwet doughs also - like 80% ciabatta? I need to figure out how to calibrate my thermometer!

Jay

[egalecki]

Re: Ciabatta

I don't remember the hydration of the last ciabatta I did, but it was pretty sloppy dough, and it was good to go at 205.

Even if yours is off a bit, as long as it's consistent it shouldn't matter, right?