Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

[texassourdough]

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

To be consistent, Eric, you really need to weigh everything in every step. As I have stated before, there are those who have "the touch" who can make great bread without weighing, but so few have this skill that I must assume you don't either.

Your preferment is LONG, way long, even at a cool room temp. And your expansion is low. I add 200 grams of flour and 200 of water to 100 of starter and it peaks in about eight hours. Your stiffer preferment will be slower but unless your starter is half dead it will run out of food way before your 20 hours or so from preferment to making dough.

What you are calling a "firm starter" is NOT. If it is starter it is underfed and overshot. If it is preferment it is underexpanded. Your day 2 expansion is even further underexpanded and underfed. Guess what! Your "starter" isn't ready to do anything. It is half dead! And heavy, dead starter/preferment will yield heavy, dead bread.

You can mess around all you want but if you don't have discipline you will get mediocre results. I have described the bread process on this site many times. I am not going to do it from scratch again!

Normal expansion ratios for sourdoughs at temps from 68 to 78 or so is to go from 100 grams of starter to 500 grams of preferment to 2500 grams of finished dough. You are WAY off!
Jay

[EricU]

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Probably not enough steam and too short a bake...Will give a more robust crust.

The last two batches I had forgotten the pan of water. My last batch, I placed my cast iron skillet on the rack one below my rack that holds the baking stone.

My attempt at hot dog buns came out much better tasting and with a nice crust and crumb.

I am now need to work on my timing of my doughs and preferments. And I am looking for a good robust crust and as much "Sour" in my sourdough loaves.

The current dough that I have started used my current healthy SD starter and is going like this:

Day 1) 8:00 PM (Monday 4-25): 200 gms SD starter + 300 gm BF + enough water to make a dough. This was left out on the counter covered overnight in mild Norther California to make the "Firm Starter".

Day 2) 5:00 PM (Tuesday 4-26): added to the 600 gm of "Firm Starter", 350 gm BF + 240 gms water + salt and all kneaded together, covered and let sit on the counter until 9:30 pm at which it had a good doubled in volume. I then transfered to the fridge, where it will sit overnight.



Now my real question as what to do tomorrow, day 3. I will pull out the dough and let it warm for a couple of hours, then should I:

1. Add an equal amount of dough (BF, H2O + Salt) by weight?
2. Add twice as much dough by weight?
3. Add no more new dough?
4. How long should I let the dough sit? At least until it doubles after adding new flour and water?
5. After shaping and proofing, what should I be looking for? Usually I get some expansion of my shaped loaves and then get more expansion (spring?) in the oven.

I kind of feel like I am at a standstill point with my bread knowledge as now I am kind of shot gunning it again as to time and volumes (by weight) of ingredients.

Thanks for any help, Eric.

[texassourdough]

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Probably not enough steam and too short a bake. Turn off the oven when "done" and leave the bread in the oven for an additional ten minutes or so (may need to experiment with time) with the door cracked. Will give a more robust crust.

[splatgirl]

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Well, if it makes you feel any better, I just had a major fail with whole wheat SD sandwich bread. I must have angered the SD spirits.

Another idea for excess starter is crackers...I almost never buy crackers anymore because homemade is so much tastier and I can put whatever I want into or on them.
Any percentage of starter seems to work, plus any type of flour, the fat of your choice (~25% by bakers percent), salt (1%) and seeds, herbs, etc. If necessary, add enough additional water to get a very stiff dough. Roll out as thin as you can get it and bake ~350 until crisp. Sometimes I have to turn down the oven to 300ish to get them crispy without too much browning.

[EricU]

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Today I am experimenting with a pizza dough that I mixed up this morning with all the left over starter that I have been just putting in a separate jar stored in the fridge instead of tossing it down the drain (we are on a septic out here so it is actually good for the septic system). I just let it warm to room temp and then added enough flour to thicken it up for pizzas tonight. We will see how it turns out, good thing I have two teenage boys and their buddies to consume it all.

Well the pizza dough made from the left over starter came out great. In the morning I added about 1,000 gms of KA BF to about 600 gms of the starter discard and added enough water to make a dough ball and let it sit on the counter for a few hours. Let it rise and stuck it in the fridge until it was time to make the pizzas. Seems like a good use for the starter vs. dumping it down the drain.

I am pretty happy with the SD results that I have gotten the last two bakes,...

Well, there I go shooting off my mouth and after saying that, now I am NOT very happy with last nights SD results. I baked two large loaves and they looked wonderful, but I do not like the way the crust came out, it was thin and not what I have come to like or expect in a crust. My wife and boys really enjoyed it, but not me. The crumb was very tasty, but the crust was to thin for my liking.

Is this a function of the hydration level? Or proofing time? or some combo?

Eric.

[EricU]

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Jay,

Thanks for the comments, I can't believe how much my bread making has progressed, not that I don't still have a lot to learn. I have been somewhat lucky as I currently work from home so I can keep an eye on my Starters, Preferments and doughs. I have been working on "reading" my doughs and starters more than trying to control them. If it gets to be too late I put the dough in the fridge, leave the starter on the counter and go to bed.

With Splat's advise I have been able to get my starter very active, sometimes almost too active! Getting the starter active and feeding it 4x expansions seems to be working.

Today I am experimenting with a pizza dough that I mixed up this morning with all the left over starter that I have been just putting in a separate jar stored in the fridge instead of tossing it down the drain (we are on a septic out here so it is actually good for the septic system). I just let it warm to room temp and then added enough flour to thicken it up for pizzas tonight. We will see how it turns out, good thing I have two teenage boys and their buddies to consume it all.

As far as water, we are on a non-treated well and have pretty good water according to the tests that I have done routinely.

I am pretty happy with the SD results that I have gotten the last two bakes, though I keep forgetting to slash my loaves, the last bake I slashed after about eight minutes, which actually still worked. But that was my fault and not a function of the dough or starter.

Now I need to start concentrating on the timing of the starters, Preferments and doughs, then back out to learning how to use the WFO as all my baking has been on a stone in the indoor oven. I also want to start understanding more of what is going on and why with the wild yeasts, growths, starches and proteins to better understand and control the end products.

Thanks again, Eric.

[texassourdough]

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Hi Eric!

I just logged on after traveling for a couple of weeks. Splatgirl knows her stuff and gave you great advice!

Only thing I see worth commenting on is that I often check loaf temp - not always but often - and while I have hit 212 (not sure how for my max should be about 210.5 at standard barometric pressure) I routinely target 208-209. As you found the temp you bake your bread to does impact flavor! There are caveats however. You don't want to bake an enriched sandwich loaf to 209. It should be a lean, artisanal style bread.

I will reinforce some of splatgirl's comments. After some recent experiments I am now doing a "preexpansion" by feeding my starter the morning before I actually start my preferment. I.e. I feed it in the morning. It will peak at roughly 6-7 pm that evening. I then feed it again to make my preferment. That, with a reasonably robust starter (to begin with) gives me a reliably robust preferment the next morning which in turn gives a robust rise to the final dough.

WRT temp...I am not very excited about the temp of a fed starter or of the preferment. Yes, there is an optimal temperature, but... there are other variables as well and I don't see it as critical so long as the temp is above 68 or so and below 78 or so. (NOTE: I actually use 3X expansions (100 gm starter plus 150 water and 150 flour) in the winter so it will peak in about the same time as a 4X (100 plus 200 plus 200) expansion which I use in warmer weather. But...it is not a big deal). I do like my final dough to be above 70 and will use a warming drawer as a proofing box in cold temps. NOTE: I am not critical about temp because I don't try to schedule my baking - I divide and form and proof and bake as the dough demands which is variable. IF you want to bake on a schedule you need to control temp. I like cooler temperatures - say 72 than 82 because I think it gives better flavor but...the shorter times that accompany higher temps may be important to you!

On water... avoid chlorinated tap water. Period. Get bottled water (I can get a gallon for 70 cents at my grocery. Or use a Brita filter....)

Oh...and about excess starter... my yeasties needed feeding when I got home so I fed all four of my starters and took the excess and made bread. As an experiment I took the 460 grams of starter and added 70 grams of water (for a total of 300 grams of water) and 270 grams of flour (for a total of 500 grams of flour), plus 10 grams salt (2 percent) and 5 grams of yeast (1 percent which was too much). Mixed it up and it was way loose which is kind of what I expected due to degraded starch and protein - and why I dropped the hydration to 60% (300/500). So I mixed in flour until I could reasonably deal with it. Skipped the bulk fermentation and put it in the banneton. When the banneton was overflowing I baked it. I have termed it "Sludge Bread". Came out pretty good - odd (and as my wife says "fermented" tasting due to all the starter) - but interesting and not bad.

Hope that is useful
Jay

[splatgirl]

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Once it gets going well, just keep doing what you're doing. You shouldn't need to feed it more than once a week or so if it lives in the fridge in between. I routinely go two weeks between feedings. Longer than that, and I'd make sure to leave myself enough time to do two feedings before use.

Stir in whatever liquid has separated out if that happens, otherwise you'll lose your baseline 100% hydration.

You can use excess starter in just about anything that calls for flour and liquid (water or dairy--just use powdered milk or buttermilk). I liked your idea from a previous post about adding it to IDY doughs. Also pancake batter, waffles, muffins, quick breads, etc.

[EricU]

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

...I think Jay and I can both attest to the fact that even with a well established starter, if it's sluggish in the jar for whatever reason, it's going to give you sluggish dough. And like I said, if it's a newly grown starter, it does take a while to get it's business straightened out...

Well, it looks like my starter is on the "sluggish" side as after yesterday's 4x Expansion, and change over to a glass container, it never even came close to doubling in volume. I fed it again a little while ago with another 4x Expansion, and i guess I will just keep feeding it once a day until it gets going!

Once it gets going good, is there any special care in hanlding the starter? like pouring off the top or trying to keep the top portion or just mix it up and weigh out what you want? (the latter is the one I hope works!)?

And I like the idea of making pizza dough out of the not so great starter as constantly throwing away that much flour seems a waste. And with our mid -60s weather and two teenage boys with friends, pizzas out of the WFO sounds like a good way to get rid of some dough.

Thanks, Eric.

[splatgirl]

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Hydration affects both crust and crumb. Generally, a wetter dough will produce a more open, airy crumb and crustier crust, but obviously there are a whole lot of other variables that affect this, too.

Jay is more into a really dark crust than I am overall, but it depends on the bread, too. I don't really temp my loaves unless it's a new recipe or dark grain flours that make it harder to judge visually, but I'm sure I rarely bake to 212 internal. I too have found that I get better results in my indoor oven with the convection feature off. Keep in mind that if you are a crust fanatic that it is as much about getting the loaf into the oven at exactly the right stage of proof as it is about the baking. Oven humidity is a factor as well. And hydration.
I freeze almost every loaf I bake unless it's to be eaten that day. I pull it from the freezer, thaw on the counter and refresh with a quick trip back into the oven at eating time, and I find that they do better with this if the initial bake is a few minutes shorter than I'd normally go. It leaves a bit of extra moisture in the crumb to make nice on reheat and gives the crust some leeway to darken up a bit more without ending up too dark for my liking.

I'll also say that I think 212 internal for a 63% hydration loaf is too high anyway.

I think Jay and I can both attest to the fact that even with a well established starter, if it's sluggish in the jar for whatever reason, it's going to give you sluggish dough. And like I said, if it's a newly grown starter, it does take a while to get it's business straightened out. But it never hurts to try--pizza dough is a good thing to practice with both for high hydration handling and because it's simple and not so dependent on the rising strength of your starter. And even if it sucks, it'll still be pretty darn good. I like at least 75% hydration for mine...

Excellent point about the water. I recently gave some of my very perky starter to a friend who lives about a mile away. She had kind of a hard time getting it to go at her house, despite the fact that we are both on city water. I would have guessed it would behave exactly the same as at my house, but no.

[EricU]

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

One other thing you might try, depending on your water (ours is quite chlorinated) is using filtered water for your starter. Mine is much happier when I use the filtered than the tap water straight.

Thanks for the suggestion, we are on a well and don't use any chlorination. So hopefully the water is not an issue.

Eric.

[egalecki]

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

One other thing you might try, depending on your water (ours is quite chlorinated) is using filtered water for your starter. Mine is much happier when I use the filtered than the tap water straight.

[EricU]

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

As far as hydration, I suggest you just choose a basic recipe and follow it to establish a baseline for yourself. OR, since you know that no-knead is too wet for you to handle (IIRC, it's ~80%), shoot for somewhere between that and the 63% you are comfortable with. It really, really doesn't matter but is just a matter of your preferred style of bread.

What effect does the hydration levels have on the final loaves?

After reading some of Jay's comments, one of the things that I noticed is that I am trying to get my final loaf temp up higher without burning the crust. I have not been able to hit 212 degrees F. yet, I usually pull the loaves out of the oven at around 207-209.

One of the changes that I have made is to NOT use the convection feature of my oven, this has allowed me to get up to the 207-209 range without burning the crust.

With the higher internal temp and the addition of my left over starter, it really changed (for my liking) the taste of the crumb, but especially the taste of the crust had an unexpected WOW factor! The flavor was phenomenal, I have actually changed the shape of some of my loaves to have less crumb and more crust for the blue cheese and olive tapenade sittings (and maybe a little red wine as I do live in Napa and need to keep the local economy going!), while making the larger loaves for my boys lunches and their buddies after school devourings.

Switch to a glass jar-- Discard all but 50g. of what you have, and feed it with 200/200. Mark a line or use a rubber band to note where it starts out at if you need a reference. Mine often overflows the jar in this situation so I put it on a plate...
Feed at least 4x expansion, stand at room temp until double, refrigerate, use within a day or two.

Thanks for the tips! I was planning on switching to a glass starter container for just that reason and will be picking one up today. I think I will put off trying to bake the SD bread until I get good consistent results with the starter doubling in volume after I quad the expansion!

I will see how it acts throughout this week and I am sure I will have more questions for you guys.

Again, I cannot overstate how much help your assistance has provided, thanks again.

Eric.

[splatgirl]

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Just to avoid confusing terms, lets call you adding water and flour to a starter to increase the overall weight an EXPANSION.
Not to be confused with an increase in volume secondary to the starter having risen.

Unless your house is very, very cold, a long time from feeding to peak volume (aka at least doubled) is almost certainly an indication of sluggish bacteria secondary to underfeeding. You should always do at least a 4x expansion, meaning you would quadruple your total starter by weight when you feed.
For storage between bakes, I typically keep 100g. or less of starter on hand. Often it's barely more than the dirty jar in my fridge. The night before my bake, I pull it out to the counter and feed 200g. flour and 200g. water, giving me roughly 500g. starter. If I know I'm going to be doing big or multiple batches, I would expand my starter accordingly so that I know I'll have enough total weight to accommodate whatever I plan to bake.
Basically, you can't overfeed, but underfeeding, i.e. doing less than a 4x expansion will result in a sluggish starter eventually, as would not letting it at least double before refrigerating, or letting it sit out at room temperature without feeding for multiple days.

Having a probe thermometer in your starter wouldn't be a problem, and yes, I presume if it's accurate, that is the temperature. ~74 is great. Sourdough isn't some dark art. It's bacteria and you're just managing a colony with food and temperature. Room temp makes them hungry, the fridge sort of puts them in a trance. Your goal is to grow and capture the largest number of hungry bacteria you can (aka PEAK) and get them into a dough. Other than with heat, it's actually sort of hard to kill an established starter, IME.

As far as hydration, I suggest you just choose a basic recipe and follow it to establish a baseline for yourself. OR, since you know that no-knead is too wet for you to handle (IIRC, it's ~80%), shoot for somewhere between that and the 63% you are comfortable with. It really, really doesn't matter but is just a matter of your preferred style of bread.

I like a clear container for growing starter so that you can see where it's been. In your case, it's very possible yours has peaked and then collapsed and you just weren't there to see it and/or you can't tell where it's been in the crock. Remember that "peak" means that the bacteria is at its most active but also that it has exhausted most of the food supply. Once at peak, there is less food (fresh flour and water) available so the bacterial stop multiplying and slow down to almost nothing. It also collapses just like an overrisen dough would.
Switch to a glass jar--I use a 1qt. flip top jar with the lid gasket removed so it can vent. A mason jar with a screw lid is good, too, just don't put the lid on tight. Discard all but 50g. of what you have, and feed it with 200/200. Mark a line or use a rubber band to note where it starts out at if you need a reference. Mine often overflows the jar in this situation so I put it on a plate...
If it takes longer than ~8 hours to double, discard all but 50g. and repeat.
If it's a brand new or newish starter, it's going to take a month or so before it's sturdy enough to bake with, IME.
Once my starter has peaked, I consider it usable for baking for about a day or two IF it's stored in the refrigerator. If it's left on the counter, I would refeed and try and bake within 8 or so hours after peak.

Feed at least 4x expansion, stand at room temp until double, refrigerate, use within a day or two.

[EricU]

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

...when you say doubled and tripled your starter, I assume you mean expanding it by weight by adding water and flour. Following a feed, when the starter has grown to at least double the volume is when I consider it at it's peak and ideal to bake with. For my starter and house temp, this is 8 hours or less. If it takes longer, I consider that a sign that I need to repeat the feeding/growing schedule before use.

Ours seems to be taking longer and doesn't seem to be doubling in volume after I double it or triple it. And yes, when I say double or triple it that is by weight. If I have 500 g of starter and add 500 g of BF and 500 g of water, I call that tripling it, because I now have 1,500 grams of starter.

I like my starter at room temp when I'm going to use it, but I do occasionally use it straight from the fridge. I store mine in the fridge between bakes, then remove, feed and let stand at room temp until doubled, trying to coordinate that with when I know I'll be doing my dough.

Is it ok to use a metal probe thermometer in the starter? My wife is saying NOT to do that again. Is it really that tempermental?

IDY vs. sourdough is independent of hydration. I'd start with a dough that you are familiar with in IDY so that you'll have something to compare to. Hydration totally depends on the bread and what you prefer in terms of style and texture. To me 63% is a really stiff dough, but I tend to bake lean, crusty artisan style breads with an open crumb=higher hydration...

What hydration do you aim for? As at first I had it too wet from my experimenting with the No-Knead which I could handle. Then with the scale I realized I was putting a lot of water in and knocked the water ration down to the 62 or 63 percent level which does give a realy dry first dough.

Below are pics of today's bake with IDY that I added the SD starter to the mix that had risen yesterday and then sat in the fridg overnight, the mix was 25% old IDY mix with 75% new mix added yesterday which is what sat overnight. I haven't tasted it yet, but it smells just awesome!

The last pic is of my starter that had been in the fridge for a while getting weekly feeds and I doubled yesterday, and tripled today. What you see is more than eight hours old and has been at room temp for the last two days since being removed from the fridge. I think that I am going to feed it again tomorrow.

After the starter is super active, can it sit out more than eight hours without feeding? Or should it then be either fed again or put in the fridge?

Seems like this is my next step in learning regarding timing and reading my starter!

Thanks again for the help. Eric.