Bread Maker Wanna-Be

[Tonyp]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

For baguettes, try the Gold Medal Better for Bread flour. I do a poolish and levain the night before and add the remaining flour & salt for the final dough in the morning of a bake. I really love the oven spring and flavor profile I get with this no-knead, long fermentation style loaf. P.S. - I've been folding small cubes of Asiago cheese into the baguettes during the final shaping and that bread's pretty awesome (if I do say so myself). Looking forward to hearing how you like the flour on order vs the 00/Red Mill combo.

Will look into it Mike. There are so many flours out there! Locally the stores here just carry the typical stuff you get in the supermarket, pillsbury etc. Now that I will start ordering online though .. so much to choose from!

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Well, that was an experience. The bread bake went OK. I began at 5:15 this morning and pulled the last loaves out of the oven at 7:40pm. The sourdough was the most disappointing. Very little oven spring... the only difference between the last sourdough that turned out so well and today was I forgot to remove 10% of the levain (per recipe instructions) before mixing in the ingredients for the final dough. I remembered before I had completely mixed two of the batches so I tried to fish out some levain. Other than that rookie mistake (by this rookie) everything else (temps, times, ingredients) were the same. The dough was nice and shaped up well, but when I put it on the peel to load it felt, for lack of a better word: soupy/jiggly. Nevertheless, I ended up with 45 loaves at 640g (before baking) each.

After the three loads of sourdough the vault temp was 520 and the hearth was 425. I took some hot ashes that I cleared out in the morning and started another small fire. Brought the vault up to 650 and the hearth up to 550 (took about 60 minutes with a small fire).

Since I had gotten behind my timeline (somewhere between the 2nd and 3rd load of sourdough it began to snowball), I had mixed the yeast bread too early (10am and 11am). I shaped them and had them in proofing baskets by 12:30/1:30. I was still finishing the sourdough at this time. I ended up moving these loaves into the cold garage after they had proofed a while in the house, lest they become over-proofed.

By 4:00pm I loaded the french bread, and slowly but surely I was able to load three loads of the Golden sesame to finish off the day.

I learned a lot today about my speed, or lack thereof, and about how I'd like to use my oven for bread. I think more than 4 loads is too cumbersome... I did not like lighting another fire, etc., etc. My Saturday routine seems to follow the heat curve of my wfo without the need for further fire and still produces 50 loaves of bread. So, if I were ever to undertake 100 loaves in one week again I would split it up into two days. Oh, and I also learned bread is not nearly as interesting to my daughter as it is to me. At one point today she was in the bathroom painting her fingernails while I was baking.

The pictures should be self-explanatory... just showing some of my low budget set-up.

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

You can see in the pic of the three loaves how much lower the sourdough (left) is compared to the french (middle). Total loaves for the day: 97.

Pre-bake weight: sourdough, 640; french; 550, sesame, 460.

[SCChris]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

John, for a first go at three back to back bakes, I call that 97 times successful!

I have the feeling, reading your post, that the bakes were a bit frantic what with mixing, proofing and shaping, times three. With 97 loaves, I bet it was.. Congrats!!!

Have you considered shaping and refrigerating one or more of your breads the night before? This would allow you to base your bake session more on the oven temp lessening the combined complexities of the conventional mix, proof, shape and bake, single session.

A couple of years ago I had decided that retarding my pre-shaped loaves in the refrigerator was less desirable than retarding my dough prior to shaping, I have since rethought this. What I have found is that professional bakers, world class bakers, cannot agree on what is better for flavor development, retard before shaping or after. What they do agree on is that a longer proof does generate more flavor.

My most recent bakes have been to shape my loaves and allow 1 to 2 days of retarding and bake directly from the fridge. Remove the loaves, slash the loaves and bake the loaves without any intermediate resting to warm the unbaked loaves. The benefit for me has been that I can break up the process, mixing and proofing and shaping on Sunday morning and baking Monday or Tuesday night after work… Fresh bread midweek is very nice! Likewise, if I have 4 to 5 hours at night and can get my levain started in the morning, I can put shaped loaves in the fridge before bed.

The great majority of my baking is using cast iron “combo cookers” cloches in my kitchen oven. I can bake 2 800g loaves at a time or, using a bake stone, I can do a single 6Kg miche using a stainless steel mixing bowl to cover. The combo cookers and bowl contain the steam for the first 25 minutes and steam is critical for crust and crumb development. My WFO is 43” and so the volume of an Ideal bake is something greater than 18 Lbs. of dough per bake and 22 Lbs. is better for steam and crust generation. This volume requirement can be side stepped by using cloches to cover the loaf or generating great volumes of steam via a garden sprayer or some such.

Most professional baker have the luxury, necessity really, of temperature controlled proofing cabinets and walk-in refrigerators for retarding. We are, for the most part, serious home bakers, S.H.B.s.

S.H.B.s that retard shaped loaves cannot agree if these loaves should be brought out of the fridge and allowed some time to warm up before baking. I don’t believe that the time to warm is particularly helpful but the ability to wait for the oven to be right and pull the loaves from the fridge and bake makes the complexities of timing the proof to the proper oven temp, or vice versa, much easier.

Chris

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Chris, I will definitely try out the cold proof. After mixing/kneading do i allow the normal times for bulk proof, pre-shape, and then refrigerate after shaping? I assume that I would, just checking. And is there any potential of the dough sticking to the floured couche (cloth napkin) while in the refrigerator for so long?

Thanks for the feedback... your advice will help control the chaos.

[SCChris]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

The pre-shape / shape process is normal just refrigerate. I had a few instances of stickage in wicker baskets and this was due to a lack of flour. I always use white rice flour now and flour every time. I use some super sized ziplock bags that I found at target and these can handle 2 to 3 baskets per bag. You might need experiment with quantities of yeast a bit if you're using commercial yeast rather than sourdough because the yeast will not slow as much as sourdough in the lower temps but whatever, it'll give you more breathing time..

97 loaves, you are a brave man!


C

PS any change in yeast should be minor with the caveat that most recipes far overstate the required yeast.. IMO.

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Another bake day:

Today I worked with approx. 60 lbs. of dough.

75% Pain au Levain
Pugliese (thanks again for Mike's recipe)
69% Pain Rustique (French bread)
Golden Sesame made with AP flour and semolina

Nicer looking loaves today and better caramelization on the crusts. I still couldn't get the pugliese to "spring" in the oven and the sourdough loaves were still a little "soupy/jiggly" coming out of the proofing basket and flattened more than I'd like on the peel... they may be over-proofed.

Next week I'll implement cold fermentation (thanks again to Chris) and stretch out the process from 30 hours to 3 days or so.

I am really glad I followed the advice to insulate well. I only have 4.5" of thermal mass in the vault and 2.5" in the floor. I was able to bake all the bread, and tonight when I went out to roast brussels sprouts at 6:45pm (23 hrs. after I put the door on at the end of pizza) the vault (dome) temp was 507F and the hearth was 465F. WOW!

[SCChris]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

John,
Congrats again, I don’t know if you have connected with thefreshloaf.com yet, but you’re going to find it a great resource for all things bread. The community ranges from first time bakers to full time pros and the forum is broken out such that you’ll find a group of experts for whatever question you want answered.

Now the reason that I mention the site is that with the volumes and number of bakes that you’re doing, if you continue, you will really benefit from a few real mentors and a bit of supporting equipment. As I mentioned earlier I think retarding is going to help you with your scheduling, what I didn’t mention was that a proofing box/cabinet will also really help.

Controlling as many variables as you can will really help you get the consistency that you’re looking for. I’m including a link for a homemade inexpensive proofer that uses a terrarium heater and a timer to automate some of the process. I was searching for bigger unit that was more recently shown but didn’t immediately find it. You should also know that used equipment like racks for proofing, are often available for less that you might build it for and will work better for the volume of loaves you're baking.

Your volume really puts you in the small bakery realm rather than the serious home baker world although your experience may be more SHB. Keep it up and you'll be a full time pro!

Proofing Box | The Fresh Loaf

Chris

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

I have read a lot on thefreshloaf.com but have not joined the forum yet. You are overstating the facts when you even categorize me as a SHB. I really am new to this, and I am still trying to figure out how this new hobby will develop. I enjoy working with my hands, and I enjoy feeding people. Bread making seems to be a good fit (plus all the ways bread has been used metaphorically and physically throughout history, culture, religion, etc. is really appealing).

I am trying to understand the basics of bread and I find with this, as with other things, I learn best by repetitive trial and error... so I am baking a lot and taking notes and trying different things as I go. My friends are good to give honest feedback, which helps as well.

I set out to build my oven for pizza and hosting lots of people... though I did not plan on bread I am thankful for the simple fact that it is not an either/or. I can have my pizza party on Friday night and bread bake on Saturday with the same wfo!

If I get good at baking bread with commercially available flours (which I am using currently because I am still learning and I am giving everything away) I would eventually like to switch to milling my own wheat, etc. etc. I think there is a niche market for "local" and I have a friend who is a wheat farmer who is already keen on the idea of growing 1 or 2 acres of "sustainable" wheat for my bread production... he's been eating lots of the bread I've been baking. All this is quite hypothetical!

Nevertheless, I have the oven, and I enjoy the process, so who knows?

I am checking used restaurant/baking equipment auctions for a proofing box. My wife says she wants her laundry room back on Saturdays.

By the way Chris, I am from Southern California (San Diego) but have been in the Kansas City area for the past 10 years. All our family is still in San Diego and the Imperial Vally so we go back every two years for vacation.

Thanks again for the encouragement.

[SableSprings]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

John, I had to move out of our kitchen to a prep room I created in the garage (to return the kitchen to my wife). I originally had covered a set of metal shelves with plastic and 1" insulation board, installed a small heater & fan and used it quite successfully as a proofing box. I recently purchased a nsf stainless steel wire 4' wide x 6' tall rack. It's got 5 shelves and is 18" deep...so a full baking sheet fits nicely on a shelf. I proof my baguettes in a couche on an inverted half sheet (5-6 baguettes on each sheet-4 half sheets to a shelf). My upcoming plan is to use panel board and rigid insulation board to enclose the top 3/4 of the rack unit (4 shelves). With a small heater on the bottom shelf (that has a good thermostat & fan), it will become my new proofing box. I don't plan on doing the amount of dough that you do on bake day, but the rack cost $89 at Costco and I've spent another $75 on the heater, insulation, and panel board. Since I haven't seen a used proofing box for anything near what I'm willing to spend...this will probably be what I use for quite a while and thought it might be something for you to consider if you don't find an inexpensive commercial unit. I really like the fact that the nsf rack comes with a set of heavy casters, so I'm able to easily move the homemade proofing box around. I currently use an nsf rack to cool my breads when they come out of the oven and have been really happy with the quality of the unit components.

Anyway, my real restriction now is the refrigeration space for the dough...I only get to use part of our garage refrigerator for baking...so I really love it when we have cool nights (not freezing) here in Oregon on the night before a bake. I guess there's always something

Happy Holidays & looking forward to another great year of baking.

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Baked bread today. I took Chris' advice (well, partially) and cold proofed my dough... bulk rather than shaped because I did not have room 40 shaped loaves in my garage refrigerator.

Here's a quick synopsis of my schedule and temps without every little detail:

12pm Thurs. Started levain for sourdough (when started had just peaked, about 4 hours after feeding)
2pm Thurs. Started poolish for 2 batches of "pain rustique"
8pm Thurs. Mixed final dough for 1st batch of sourdough 75% AP 25% Whole Wheat Durum, 75% Hydration 3 S&F stored at 50F overnight into the refrigerator at 7am Fri. morning.
10pm Thurs. Started levain for 2nd batch of sourdough (about 12 hours from feeding starter)
7am Fri. mixed final dough for 2nd sourdough 75% AP, 25% whole wheat (King Arthur's Flour), 75% Hydration
7:30am Fri. mixed final doughs for "pain rustique"
1st batch 50% whole wheat durum, 50% AP, 75% Hydration
2nd batch 50% semolina, 50% AP, 69% Hydration
All three bulk proof at 50F for 8 hours, and into the refrigerator at 3pm Fri.
3pm Fri. start poolish for 3rd batch of "pain rustique"
5:30am Sat. pre-shape, shape sourdough boules final proof at 60F for 7 hours
6:30 am Sat. pre-shape, shape "pain rustique" batards final proof at 60F for 6 hours
7am Sat. mix final dough for 3rd batch of "pain rustique" 100% AP, 69% Hydration, bulk proof at 50F for 6 hours (2 S&F)
12:30pm Sat. bake "pain rustique"
1:30pm Sat. bake sourdough
1:30pm Sat. pre-shape, shape baguettes and batards "pain rustique"
3:30pm Sat. bake last batch of "pain rustique"

That covers most of the major stuff.

I'm really happy with the taste of the "oldest" sourdough (the lighter of the two loaves in the crumb picture). I haven't tried the 50% durum whole wheat yet, but it looks good. Got my first "gringe" or ear today on one of the white loaves... still learning how to score the bread, among many other things.

[Tonyp]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Hi John,

Coming along nicely! The loaf with the ear looks great. Clearly got a nice score and oven spring there. Making me hungry for a nice crusty loaf of bread...

[Laurentius]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Hi JohnR,

Maybe you have stated this before and I missed it. What is the temperature of your oven with your first load?

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Too hot! 570F hearth. I get impatient and think "this should cause some good spring, but what I get it a little burning on the bottom." I guess 570F would be OK if I was baking 300g baguettes, but with 500g batards it is probably a little too hot.

[Laurentius]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Too hot! 570F hearth. I get impatient and think "this should cause some good spring, but what I get it a little burning on the bottom." I guess 570F would be OK if I was baking 300g baguettes, but with 500g batards it is probably a little too hot.

I was hoping that you were on the hot side, but I would start with my heavy boule first, with the steam they produce you should get spectacular oven spring with a loaded oven. I had steam pouring around my sealed door, smelling like a bakery.