Playing with sourdough

[CanuckJim]

Re: Playing with sourdough

Drake,

Your question is a bit tricky to answer because I use my starter on such a frequent basis. It never really gets a chance to become inactive. When I'm measuring out small amounts of starter, a la Hamelman, I simply take it out of the fridge to measure, then mix it up, then let it stand for fourteen hours at room temp. The "mother" starter is refreshed at the same time, left to rest for the same time, then back in the fridge. I've also taken the more frequent route you use, but if the amounts are relatively small, I've seen no difference in performance at all. If I was doing a very large starter build, say ten pounds or so, I'd split the feedings over several days to give the yeast a chance to digest all that water and flour. It's very true that the more often a starter is refreshed the better it becomes.

Maver,

Yours is also a tough one, simply because there are so many variables, and kitchens and conditions vary. Overall, though, I'd say controlling mixing times and temps are the two factors that have a great impact on the finished bread. That's not to say the others aren't important as well, but I'd try to control times and temps first.

Jim

[maver]

Re: Playing with sourdough

I do expect that starter taken directly from the fridge rather than from a recently fed starter will behave differently - it will take longer for the initial bulk fermentation. But what's the difference between spending a few days bringing your starter up to speed vs giving eight hours for the bulk fermentation (instead of 3-6 hours)? Once the yeast starts feeding on the starches in the dough, it's active. Now, if you are a commercial baker, you need more consistency than I can achieve with my lazy starter feeding schedule. I suspect the obsessive feeding approach is geared towards achieving consistent results in a professional kitchen, but I also suspect it's not a prerequisite to achieve good (but probably more variable) results.

I'm interested to know how much the different variables that affect the quality of the bread (ingredients, starter, mixing times and temps, rising and retardation, handling of the dough, and oven conditions) actually contribute to the end result. In my efforts to make good bread at home, where should I spend more or less energy?

[DrakeRemoray]

Re: Playing with sourdough

On the topic of obsessive feeding (I agree it is obsessive), the reading I have done suggests that it takes 2 days to build up the sourdough. I think about it this way. If I pull my sourdough from the fridge it is not nearly as active as it is when it has been fermenting on the counter. So rather than just double a cold starter, I feed it so it doubles a few times.

For example:
If I need 1800g of starter on Friday evening, I start with 225g on Thursday morning, and double that (add another 225g or flour and water). On Thursday evening, I add 450g combined flour and water, on Friday morning, I add 900g (to get to 1800g total). That way I have had a few feedings where it has had a chance to double.

Jim how do you feed the sourdough while it is in your fridge? Once a day? less? I think I will do an experiment trying 2 batches, one directly out of the fridge and one using my current method. See if there is any noticeable difference.

Drake

[BrianShaw]

Re: Playing with sourdough

Thats exactly the crumb I'm looking for. If you plug all those holes up, you'll have a picture of my bread.

Ha... that's hilarious! I've baked a few loafs like that!!

Suggestion - don't use the starter until it is really active... Like CanukJim's picture. Early in my sourdough baking I would sometimes tend to rush the process and use starter that was only partially active... often ending up with edible, but less than perfect, bread.

Other suggestion - keep feeding and baking: the starter will keep getting better and bettter.

Another suggestion - sell a camera and buy a mixer. Just kidding. Buy a mixer. Kneading by hand helps build biceps, but kneading with mixer helps increase the amount of bread baked.

[rlf5]

Re: Playing with sourdough

RLF,

If you're kneading by hand, you should practice the "windowpane test" to make sure the gluten is properly developed. When you think you're close to a full knead, tear off a piece of dough a bit larger than a golf ball. Roll it around in your hands to make a ball, then stretch it out between your hands. You should be able to get a very thin film of dough, with NO tearing. When you hold the stretched dough up to a good light source you should see a dark web of gluten strands in the "windowpane." Then you know you're there. If the dough tears at all, you should continue kneading until the test works.

Suggest that 80 F is a bit high. I'd try to lower the dough temp a few degrees by lowering the water temp a few degrees. Also, wild yeast levains are sensitive to water type. I'd use filtered, bottled (no salt added) or spring water, not chlorinated tap water.

Jim

Thanks for the advice. I did the window pane test on the second batch, which passed, but not on the first batch. I'll try cooling my water about 10 degrees and shoot for a finished temp of 75 or so. I've been using distilled water since I have quite a bit of it.

[CanuckJim]

Re: Playing with sourdough

RLF,

If you're kneading by hand, you should practice the "windowpane test" to make sure the gluten is properly developed. When you think you're close to a full knead, tear off a piece of dough a bit larger than a golf ball. Roll it around in your hands to make a ball, then stretch it out between your hands. You should be able to get a very thin film of dough, with NO tearing. When you hold the stretched dough up to a good light source you should see a dark web of gluten strands in the "windowpane." Then you know you're there. If the dough tears at all, you should continue kneading until the test works.

Suggest that 80 F is a bit high. I'd try to lower the dough temp a few degrees by lowering the water temp a few degrees. Also, wild yeast levains are sensitive to water type. I'd use filtered, bottled (no salt added) or spring water, not chlorinated tap water.

Jim

[rlf5]

Re: Playing with sourdough

RLF,

Here's two pics that might help you. One is a close up of the grigne of an olive levain hearth loaf. The other is the crumb of the same bread. You'll notice the pronounced caramelization in the loaf shot, as well as the dark portion on the flap of the grigne. Both have to do with grain sugars on the surface of the dough that benefit from overnight retardation.

Jim

Thats exactly the crumb I'm looking for. If you plug all those holes up, you'll have a picture of my bread.

[rlf5]

Re: Playing with sourdough

Thanks to everyone for your replies. I forgot to mention that I'm kneading exclusively by hand b/c I have no mixer. I kneaded for about 15 minutes on the second batch and the internal temp was about 80F. The first batch only had a ten minute kneading and I forgot to get a temp. Also, I believe I used room temperature water (75F) for both batches. When shaping the first batch I could see the dough slightly tearing, or wanting to tear from the surface tension. This was not the case with the second batch.

Jim I really like the idea of measuring out the starter I'll need and feeding it. I'll have to try that for my next loaves. I"ll also try to handle the dough better during shaping.

Thanks again!

[CanuckJim]

Re: Playing with sourdough

RLF,

Here's two pics that might help you. One is a close up of the grigne of an olive levain hearth loaf. The other is the crumb of the same bread. You'll notice the pronounced caramelization in the loaf shot, as well as the dark portion on the flap of the grigne. Both have to do with grain sugars on the surface of the dough that benefit from overnight retardation.

Jim

[CanuckJim]

Re: Playing with sourdough

RLF,

The marked difference between the first and second batch shows you're definitely on your way. The spring on the second batch tells me you used enough steam to keep the surface moist for the correct amount of time. Let's not forget that home ovens read air temp, not surface temp. It's virtually impossible to mimic the results of a brick oven in a home oven. You will get better spring, volume, caramelization, crust in your WFO with a floor brick temp of around 550 F.

I suspect that your starter is not quite mature yet, hence the difference in the bulk rise of the two batches. Be patient until all the good bugs you want take up residence and thrive, but don't stop baking in the meantime. Dutch and Drake are correct, you should always at least double your starter. If you want it to be slightly sour, feed it with hard, unbleached bread flour. If you want to increase the sourness somewhat, use organic whole wheat a few times in whatever proportion with bread flour you wish. If you want to really increase the sourness, use about 50 percent organic whole rye with bread flour. This has to do with the proportionally larger amounts of grain sugars in whole wheat and whole rye, plus the naturally sour flavour of rye grain.

Recently, I've been following Jeffrey Hamelman's recommendations on feeding. The day before I make the dough, I take the "mother" starter from the fridge and measure out the amount I'll need then feed it. I simply let it sit at room temperature for about 14 hours. It's ready to go when there are definite stripes of foam on the surface, as well as deeper bubbles. See the pic attached.

There are many, many variables in making consistently good sourdough. The trick is to remove one at a time as you progress. The density and crumb of your loaves might have to do with overkneading. Reinhart and Hamelman differ on this. Reinhart usually specifies a fully kneaded dough temp of 77 to 81, while Hamelman sticks mostly at 76. Reinhart commonly requires water at 90 to 100 F, while Hamelman manages dough temp by accounting for the mixer's friction factor, plus sourdough temp, plus air and flour temp, then adjusting the water temp to get into the 76 range. On a hot summer day, this might mean the water is at 47 F. Sounds odd, but it definitely works. It's better to shorten the mixer kneading time and finish by hand, rather than risk overheating the dough. Also, you might experiment with very short machine time and stretching and folding the dough once or twice during bulk fermentation to strengthen the gluten matrix. It's the gluten, in part, that contributes to good crumb.

I've found over time that levain doughs don't really double in bulk fermentation; they swell and grow to almost but not quite that. During retardation of the shaped loaves, you'll get about the same. Commercial yeast doughs will definitely double (or more ), but the activity is not the same or at the same rate.

It may be, too, that you are overhandling the dough when shaping. Believe me, this takes practice. My procedure is to divide and scale the loaves, then pat the pieces more or less flat, but not too aggressively, then do a preliminary shaping, let rest for 15 minutes, seam sides up, then flip them over and shape quickly before turning them into banneton.

However, having said all this, the difference between your first and second batch shows enormous improvement. Just keep at it. After all, good levain loaves are highly prized because they can be tricky to make consistently well. That's why people write books about them.

Jim

[rlf5]

Re: Playing with sourdough

You say you feed it the day before...are you feeding it twice a day for the few days before? Then using it 8-12 hours after the last feeding? Also the doubling that Dutch mentioned is pretty important, I get the best results when I am doubling the mass each time...

No, its only getting fed once. When kept in the fridge, I feed it once every 3 days. Usually on the 4th day (1st day after feeding) I use some to make bread.

[james]

Re: Playing with sourdough

I don't have a lot to add here yet, but I am joining the sourdough crowd. I had another boule with 50% king arthur and 50% caputo (and 6 grams of yeast in a 500 gram batch) fall in today after an overnight proofing -- using commercial yeast. Haven't had a culture in the refrigerator for two years, but.... it's time.

I'm ready to start the the "obessive feeding technique" again.
James

[maver]

Re: Playing with sourdough

RLF5 - great looking loaves, the carmelization of the first batch looks great, and the gringe on the second set is clearly what we're looking for in a nice loaf.

I have to say, I'm not as particular about my starter regarding feeding carefully before use - I've used it even after it has sat cold in the fridge for over a week after feeding and it seems to do the job. I just try to be patient with the rising. I do a bulk ferment until it has clearly doubled, which is often 6-8 hours out on the counter (usually assemble the dough in the evening before bed). Once it has doubled I knock it down, then place it in the fridge for another 10 hours or so, then shape it (usually the second evening) and let it rise in a cool place (this time of year covered on the back porch works well) overnight until it has clearly risen. Then it's ready to bake in the morning. At some point I'll run into overrisen dough, but I have not seen that yet. The long slow rise gives me a slight sourdough flavor and I'm getting those beautiful tiny bubbles on the surface when I bake it.

From the microbiology standpoint, I wonder why feeding the dough twice a day a few days prior to baking would be any better than what I'm doing? I appreciate that better bakers than I (probably all of the bakers here) have been doing the (I'll call it) obsessive feeding technique Drake describes for quite some time, but once the yeast wakes up and starts feeding in earnest it should be all the same. I might introduce a little extra lactic acid in my dough with my week old starter, but that is diluted out pretty quick, and a little lactic acid is a good natural preservative. Besides, yeast can even use lactic acid as fuel in the presence of oxygen. I'm sure a well fed starter gets a faster jump on helping the dough rise, but a slow rise doesn't hurt the flavor or texture. My approach is all about baking on my schedule - it's casual - I just want to eat good bread.

Marc

[DrakeRemoray]

Re: Playing with sourdough

You say you feed it the day before...are you feeding it twice a day for the few days before? Then using it 8-12 hours after the last feeding? Also the doubling that Dutch mentioned is pretty important, I get the best results when I am doubling the mass each time...

[rlf5]

Re: Playing with sourdough

Dutch

I'm using King Aurthur unbleached bread flour. I began the starter with organic dark rye. When I feed I use at least a 50/50 by weight mix of flour and water to double (or triple as in today's feeding) the starter. Primary fermentation is taking place at about 75F. The fridge temp is set between 38 and 40.

Thanks

RF