Playing with sourdough

[DrakeRemoray]

Re: Playing with sourdough

First, those loaves look excellent!!

Hammelman's recipe has you add 2 tbs of culture to a few cups of flour and water and wait 12-16 hrs for it to ripen.

That part does not seem quite right to me. I usually close to double my starter (if I have 400g of starter, I add 200g flour and 250g non-clorinated water) and let THAT ripen for between 8-16 hours. Nancy Silverman says between 8-10 hours and Hammelman says 12-16, so I figure anywhere in there is good. But that is obviously a lot more than 2 tbs...

I can't remember exactly from where I am, but when I make 8 lbs of dough, I think it is around 1100g of active levain.

Drake

[rlf5]

Re: Playing with sourdough

For Hammelman's Vermont Sourdough recipe (and really most of his natural levain recipes) he has you add between 1 and 3 tablespoons of mature culture to about 6 oz of flour and 7 oz of water, and then wait 12-16 hrs. In Reinhart's recipes he usually has you use about 6 oz of culture, and wait for 4-6 hrs.

[DrakeRemoray]

Re: Playing with sourdough

OK I see that now, but what I do is just maintain a larger batch of culture separately then go straight to his final dough number and build the bread from there with the mature, ready to use culture. So if was making 2 loaves of his home sourdough, I would just put the flours water and 10.8 oz of active levain together. Mix, rest, then add the salt...final mix, etc...

I think it is easier to keep a large batch of levain really active than to just get a small amount going...

BTW, all that bread freezes really well!

Drake

[rlf5]

Re: Playing with sourdough

I used to keep a larger batch of culture, but lately (the last two weeks) I've switched to a much smaller one of only about 200g. It takes up less room in the fridge or counter, and requires a lot less flour to feed it (though flour is quite cheap). That way I don't feel as bad when I have to throw half away at each feeding. I usually save the discarded amount until I have enough for pancakes or waffles, but sometimes it fills up quick and I have to toss some.

Yes the bread does freeze well, but my freezer is filling up quick. Sometimes I like to make bread just to make it or to try a new recipe, so I can build up a pretty large surplus. Once I'm comfortable with the outcome I can start giving extra loaves to friends, but until then its just me, the wife, and the dogs

[rlf5]

Re: Playing with sourdough

Here's a couple pics of the olive levain loaves I just took out of the oven. They were made with a culture that I purchased last week, which was MUCH more active than mine at the time. I'd feed this culture and it would have doubled in volume in about 4 hrs or less. Funny this is now, the culture that I cultivated myself does the same, but in about 8 hrs or less. So now I have two cultures to take care of. I'll see if over time the one I bought turns into the one I cultivated myself. Anyway, I should get to cut it open later on tonight when its properly cooled. The one on the left didn't really open like the one on the right because an olive got in my way and I kinda skipped over it. Also, the tops are ever so slightly scorched b/c I didn't watch it the last 3 min of baking. Amazing how fast it can turn from beautiful rich brown, to carbon black.

[rlf5]

Re: Playing with sourdough

Here's a cross section of the olive levain. The results of this indicate that the problem with my other loaves are a result of the weak culture I had. This loaf made with the very active culture I purchased gave a crumb I thought I could have never achieved. If I didn't make it myself I would think the loaf was enriched. So of course my next task is to make another batch of regular sourdough with my orginal culture which happens to be very active now. Although I must say that I prefer the flavor of the culture I cultivated here...much more depth.

[ricflo]

Re: Playing with sourdough

all new at this, what is the sour dough starter receipe? Duh!!!

[rlf5]

Re: Playing with sourdough

I pretty much used the following recipe and schedule. Its more or less from Reinhart's Bread Baker's Apprentice. I began with water at first but had to start over b/c it grew mold. I began again using the juice for the first two or three feedings, and all went well.

Procedure for Making Sourdough Starter
Wild Yeast Sourdough Starter | The Fresh Loaf



Day 1: mix...
2 T. whole grain flour (rye and/or wheat)
2 T. unsweetened pineapple juice or orange juice
Cover and let sit at room temperature for 24 hours.

Day 2: add...
2 T. whole grain flour
2 T. juice
Stir well, cover and let sit at room temperature 24 hours. At day 2 you may (or may not) start to see some small bubbles.

Day 3: add...
2 T. whole grain flour
2 T. juice
Stir well, cover and let sit at room temperature 24 hours.

Day 4:
Stir down, measure out 1/4 cup and discard the rest.
To the 1/4 cup add...
1/4 cup flour*
1/4 cup filtered or spring water

*You can feed the starter whatever type of flour you want at this point (unbleached white, whole wheat, rye). If you are new to sourdough, a white starter is probably the best choice. All-purpose flour is fine--a high protein flour is not necessary.

Repeat Day 4:
Once daily until the mixture starts to expand and smell yeasty. It is not unusual for the mixture to get very bubbly around Day 3 or 4 and then go completely flat and appear dead. If the mixture does not start to grow again by Day 6, add 1/4 tsp. apple cider vinegar with the daily feeding. This will lower the pH level a bit more and it should wake up the yeast.

[rlf5]

Re: Playing with sourdough

My third run at the Vermont Sourdough. I'm pretty sure most of my problems before were from having a culture that wasn't quite mature or active enough. I made this batch with the original culture I cultivated, and its activity was such that it would double in volume after a feeding in about 6-8 hours. Everything came out pretty well...much better than all my previous attempts, but I think i'd like a bit softer crumb. My culture is so active now, that it will double in about 4 hours or less, and more than triple in volume in 12 hours. So we'll see how the next batch of loaves I make turn out. Now that I've more or less got this down, I can really start baking some bread. It was actually good that I had to keep making this loaf over and over again, because I learned a lot about it each time. I don't think that would have happened had I got it right the first or second time. Plus working with the dough strictly by hand allowed me to gauge, by feel, how the dough was progressing.

[CanuckJim]

Re: Playing with sourdough

RLF,

You are very, very close. Just need to get those very large holes a bit smaller, and you're away. This is not something you can do in a few tries; it takes quite a bit longer. Again, review your photographs from then until now: look at the spring, volume and crumb, first to last. You are on the fast track. Keep it up.

Jim

[rlf5]

Re: Playing with sourdough

Yea, I didn't mean to imply that I got it. Just that I got one leg over the hurdle. I have quite a long way to go, but at least now I know a little bit more to get me there. Thanks again!

[CanuckJim]

Re: Playing with sourdough

RLF,

In my experience with my bread course students, you've come a very long way very quickly, so congrats. Maybe, just maybe, one day I will bake the perfect sourdough hearth bread. I'm still running the hurdles, too.

Jim

[asudavew]

Re: Playing with sourdough

looks awesome to me!

[Dutchoven]

Re: Playing with sourdough

My hat is off to you! Those are really nice looking loaves of bread! Come a long way in a short time is spot on. Just curious, what do you mean by softer crumb?
Great job!
Dutch

[rlf5]

Re: Playing with sourdough

Thanks guys! The crumb was a bit more chewy than I'd like...but just barely. This was a result of it being a bit too dense, or maybe it didn't have enough water. My earlier loaves were so dense and chewy that my jaw muscles would be fatigued after eating a few pieces. The more the culture matured, the more manageable the crumb became. The funny thing is the second half of loaf I had last night was just fine. Hopefully one day I'll be able to get up to Ontario for one of Jim's courses.