Playing with sourdough

[rlf5]

Re: Playing with sourdough

A few of pics of the high extraction miche I made a couple days ago using Hammelman's recipe. Man this dough is pretty dang hydrated, and was a bit of a pain to knead at first. I didn't want to add too much flour while kneading, so the dough kept sticking to my hands a lot. I actually made two, but only the first one is pictured whole (first two pictures)...not cut. The second one I made I didn't get a picture of the outside of the loaf, but I did get one of the crumb (third picture). The main difference in the first and the second was that the second loaf fermented a bit too long. When I went to put it in the oven, the loaf would shake like jello. Guess that will teach me to do other things while the dough is proofing! Anyway, I didn't get to taste the first loaf b/c a friend of mine made me give it to them. The second one I got to keep and while its still good, its just a bit too sour for my taste...and I like sour. My friend said the first one was great though, which was a BIG relief to me.

[Tim F]

Re: Playing with sourdough

Looks great! You are getting really nice browning of the crust, the closest I have got to that so far is when I cook in a sealed casserole dish. What is your technique for adding steam?

With the very wet doughs, have you tried spraying your kneading surface with water and keeping a bowl of water handy to dip your hands into now and then? I find it amazing how easy it is to knead sticky dough with wet hands.

[chuckster]

Re: Playing with sourdough

For What Its Worth: I use sourdough starter I got from the internet for free - Carl Griffith's 1847 Oregon Trail - google it and send them a SASE and you'll get a pack of dry starter with instructions. Then . . .

- At 7 PM, I mix 6.5 cups flour and 2.75 cups water. Mix for 10 minutes and let rest for 30.
- Add 0.5 cups of active starter and some salt and mix for a couple minutes. Let rise on counter.
- Next morning at 7 AM I push it down and let it rise again.
- At noon I form the loaves (2)
- Let rise until 2 PM or so.
- Then I bake them in a cold oven at 375 deg F for one hour. Before I put them in I flood the pan (actually part of the stove that is about 3/8-inches deep) at the bottom of the oven with water - this provides the steam for good crust.

This is the only sourdough I can really say comes out correctly for me. I tried other recipes but never got both crust and crumb to come out right.
Chuck

[rlf5]

Re: Playing with sourdough

When I cook in my kitchen oven, I have stainless steel 'cup' with 3/4" walls which i filll up with hot water after the loaves are loaded. It seems to provide enough steam for the bread. For my wfo, I just use a garden sprayer.

[james]

Re: Playing with sourdough

Rlf5,

I am right behind you on this. I used the Hamelman Vermont sourdough and starter from Jim. My first loaf was too dense -- and I've been thinking about it quite a bit.

Can I ask a question on your method?

Are you "building" your starter for 16 hours, then adding the bread flour, or are you making your bread from starter and the bread flour and letting it rise for a long time?

I am trying to work out the best way to work the "build" into a bread-making schedule. One option would be to do the build after dinner, and let it work all night, and then start making the bread the next morning. That way the starter would be active enough to rise the dough with the recommended 2-3 hours of bulk fermentation and 2 hours proofing.

What does everyone think? I need to find my groove.

Right now, I have a Vermont sourdough (800kg), a whole wheat source dough (500gr) and multi-grain sourdough (500kg) all underway, at various phases of bread making -- all using the Hamelman recipes.

We'll see.
James

[Frances]

Re: Playing with sourdough

I'm following these sourdough threads with great interest, wondering the same thing. I love my sourdough bread, which is fairly dense, but it would be nice to try for one with bigger air holes for comparison and variety...

I'm currently doing as you just suggested, James. Take the starter out of the fridge around 5 pm, devide and tripple it (just adding flour and water). Then I tripple it again (or more) just before going to bed around 11 pm. Next morning I make the dough after breakfast at around 9 am. Fire the oven in time to cook lunch, and form the loaves at the same time. So then the loaves go in when the oven has cooled to 280 C - around fourish in the afternoon.

So that's three hours bulk rise and four hours proofing. Hmmm. I started the long proofing times in the hope of getting larger holes in the bread - its certainly not overproofed by then. My sourdough starter seems to be a bit slow, but maybe that's because the amtient temps aren't above 20 C.

Following Chucksters recipe though, maybe the total rising time needs to be even longer?

[rlf5]

Re: Playing with sourdough

James

I pretty much follow Hammelman's schedule. So I use an once of very active starter with some more flour and water for the levain build. I usually make it in the morning before going to work, and when I get home in the evening (about 12 hrs later) its ripe and ready to go. I mix the levain with the rest of the ingredients to make the dough...knead...then let it bulk ferment for ' around ' two hours with usually 3 foldings during this time. It would probably only take one folding for people with electric mixers...I currently still do it all by hand. I usually always do an overnight retardation in the fridge before baking, and the dough goes straight from the fridge to the oven (with the exception of the wheat miche).

[james]

Re: Playing with sourdough

Thanks. I see how your schedule works. Sourdough certainly takes more forward planning -- no "I think I will make bread for dinner tonight," that's for sure.

The bread I made with a cold starter is coming along. I had to give it nearly 24 hours to ferment, as it took a while to get going. It's getting cooler here as well, which also slows things down. I'm sure it was ready early than 24-hours, but it was the middle of the night.

Those loafs are now shaped and doing their final proof before baking.

I have just started a "build" from Hamelman, but my timing is off to bake the loaves tonight. 12-16 hours is 9:00PM or later, which isn't enough time for a 2-3 hour fermentation and 2 hour final proofing and bake -- so I am thinking of mixing the dough after dinner and letting it ferment over night, then shape the loaves in the morning. If it is active, and I can get the bulk fermentation done, I could still shape the loaves and retard them in the refrigerator.

So much to think about -- that and the math! I'm sure this will become more instinctive as I do it a few more times.

James

[james]

Re: Playing with sourdough

So that's three hours bulk rise and four hours proofing. Hmmm. I started the long proofing times in the hope of getting larger holes in the bread - its certainly not overproofed by then. My sourdough starter seems to be a bit slow, but maybe that's because the amtient temps aren't above 20 C.

Frances, I am thinking that has a lot to do with it. My Hamelman recipe calls for 70?F for the sourdough build and 76?F for the dough fermentation. Our house is 68?F (20C) and the proof setting on our oven is 85?F. Life is tough.

I have read two sourdough books and they both recommend making up the different between room temp and dough temp by controlling your water -- warmer or cooler.

The best things in life aren't easy. At least that's what I tell our daughters. If it was easy, everybody would do it. :-)

James

[james]

Re: Playing with sourdough

Here are the first two. The two boules are Vermont Sourdough (90% bread flour/10% rye) and 65% hydrations. The one in the back is Wholewheat Sourdough (50% bread flour/50% whole wheat flour.

I had fun with the two slash patterns. I'm not sure that wholewheat sourdough is right for a loaf pan -- I might try a Batard next time. It would still make good toast.

The loaves made it to a rich brown, but did not caramelize into a nice golden/orange brown, and I want to work on that. I will take another photo when they cool for eating.

These are better than my first try.

I think the "build" and then "bread" method will give a different result. These were proofing for so long, I'm not sure how that impacts the bread. They were definitely on the verge of falling in.

I would also like a little more spring in the oven.

More to come.
James

[james]

Re: Playing with sourdough

Here is the crust and the crumb. It came out pretty well, so I'm feeling a little better about my sourdough. Lot's to keep learning.

Sourdough is so nice, because the crust has serious crunch and crackle, and the crumb has nice holes and it's moist and chewy. We'll see how sour the taste is with dinner.

James

[Frances]

Re: Playing with sourdough

Wow, those are way springier that mine! How did they taste? They look really yummy. And I love that star shaped slash pattern.

Well, it certainly looks as if I need to try some new recipes...

[chuckster]

Re: Playing with sourdough

Speaking of "slash patterns" I have two questions.

How deep am I susposed to cut into the loafs?

And, do you slash it when you form the loaves or just before baking, so the oven spring pulls it apart? I can't seem to get those ridges and peaks that crust up so tastey.

[Dutchoven]

Re: Playing with sourdough

Speaking of "slash patterns" I have two questions.

How deep am I susposed to cut into the loafs?

And, do you slash it when you form the loaves or just before baking, so the oven spring pulls it apart? I can't seem to get those ridges and peaks that crust up so tastey.

Chuckster
We generally look for about 3/8ths of and inch deep but in truth you can go shallower or deeper depending on your taste...too deep is bad though as your loaf will likely fall...angle your blade a bit when you make the cut...makes for a nicer "grigne"...the ridge that you are looking for...and they defininitely get slashed just before baking
Have fun!
Dutch

[james]

Re: Playing with sourdough

Hi Chuckster,

You score right before you put the finished loaf in the oven.

This is from Hamelman -- "Incisions with the straight blade are generally slightly deeper than those made with the curved blade, to encourage maximum expansion in the oven, and because the baker is not attempting to develop the kind of 'ear' associated with baguettes. Again, strive for symmetry, evenness of line length and depth, and a balanced pattern that not only is pleasing to the eye, but that also encourages good dough expansion."

Earlier, in baguette slashing, "To score baguettes so that they have pleasing 'ears,' only a thin flap is opened with the blade. If the blade cuts too deeply, the tendency is for the sheer weight of the cut to simply collapse back onto the loaf, resulting in little or no opening of the cuts."

And later on scoring an oval loaf from end-to-end, "the cut should be straight, and, as in scoring a baguette, only a slight piercing of the surface skill is necessary."

Hope these help. I just keep reading and experimenting.
James