1880's Limestone Oven Dismantling and Rebuild in Missouri

[tractorman44]

Re: 1880's Limestone Oven Dismantling and Rebuild in Missouri

Tractorman, I've followed your build from the beginning, and the uniqueness of the material makes it very special.

The thermal expanision of the dome is going to cause major problems with your exterior finish. As your oven cycles, the pressure will crack your mortar joints on the stonework, which then will lead to moisture intrusion. That's bad in the spring and summer, detrimental in the winter. Even if you tarp it, or build a roof over the oven, the cycling is going to eventually damage the veneer and the brick dome itself.

This is very good information stonecutter. Knowing that water intrusion is not desireable, the pavillion next to the oven now sports an additional roof to cover the oven completely.

We are expecting the limestone dome to crack due to the difference in thermal expansion between it, the firebrick and mortar as the two other ovens of similar design near here are sporting some cracks.

I'm sure its painful for you as a professional to watch a couple of inexperienced guys like us make so many mistakes, but know that we are making a serious attempt to register to memory those mistakes so that they be avoided on the next build.

For instance, knowing we were not attempting to build a modern style and staying true to the original intent, what process could have been implemented in this style of build to minimize the cracking of the limestone and what could have been done to increase its efficiency?

Would a blanket of insulation between the firebrick and the outer limestone minimized the potential of cracking? We thought of that, but considering we were intending for the stone to become the heat sink were thinking the insulation would inhibit the heat transfer into the stone.

Thanks for your input and also know that I am in awe of your talent and knowledge when it comes to stonework.

[tractorman44]

Re: 1880's Limestone Oven Dismantling and Rebuild in Missouri

I recon these folk are having a great time building this thing. Its a great project. I for one am enjoying the build, your right to explain the pitfalls but I think
This ovens built .

As always
Regards dave

As they say: "Rome wasn't built in a day"... and all along I'd told my brother that we'd build the first one at his house and make all the mistakes, then build a GOOD one at MY house.

We had a great time during the build. Of course the two of us have always had a great relationship and there's never a cross word between us. But there was just "something" about this project that sparked that little "thing" deep within a person. And I believe it was an unspoken feeling that somehow we were a bit closer to our Greatgrandfather long dead years before we were born.

Sounds kinda goofy looking at that in print...

[tractorman44]

Re: 1880's Limestone Oven Dismantling and Rebuild in Missouri

This oven is built and I am sure he will use it just fine. The problem is the person who stumbles along and sees it and decides to do the same. Why not do it right. It doesn't cost any more, it doesn't take any more time and it will, since it is efficient, be used that much more often if built correctly.

I don't seriously mean for him to tear it down or quit posting, I am just putting in the word that there ARE better ways to do things than these hardworking gentlemen have done.

If a person "stumbles along and sees it and decides to do the same" then they will be guilty of the same lack of forsight that I had in not researching enough prior to the build.

I asked stonecutter above and I'll ask you too as you're also a professional in the business...considering the build we chose and in staying true to the original intent of recreating something similar to what would have been used in that time frame, what should we have done to make it "efficient" and what should have been done to build it "correctly"?

I'm also glad that you were kidding about tearing it down, (though it didn't come across the computer screen quite like that). As far as continuing the post or not.... this was never intended to be a "how to" post at all. It is just a post highlighting the build as we did it. Right or wrong, doesn't matter...it's just a post about how WE did it.

Acknowledging in several spots all along that we didn't really know what we were doing I have invited criticism at several times also ...preferrably "constructive" criticism as said before we want to learn from our mistakes so they are not repeated. We can learn much more quickly what to do on the next one by gleaning input from those that do it for a living.

[stonecutter]

Re: 1880's Limestone Oven Dismantling and Rebuild in Missouri

The roof over the oven was a good move. You've just extended the service life of the oven. What time will tell, is the longevity of the oven mass itself. Your instincts on the blanket were spot on. Yes, it would have helped and acted as an expansion gasket. On another forum, I advised a builder to first insulate with ceramic or mineral wool then use a layer of perlcrete or vermicrete as substrate for his stone veneer, which covers the oven like yours does. I believe that this is the way you must build if there is no enclosure, and the stone covers the oven.

Your build is not painful for me to see one bit. You made it very clear at the start that this was a trial oven, that you knew there was things that you would need to do differently next time. Also mentioned was that you were building this in the spirit of your ancestors. For me, that is a lot different than building what has been referred to as a modern oven...which to me, is any oven that is not a dedicated mass oven.

And to conclude, I don't expect anyone to abide by anything I say. Yes, I am a professional stonemason, and oven builder, which give me the opportunity to see many, many types of material in many,many different types of applications, structures and how time and use has effected them. How an individual chooses to use information given is a personal choice that I can't control, because I'm not building the oven and structure. So, let the reader use discernment and build the best oven they can with the best material they can afford or that is available.

[tractorman44]

Re: 1880's Limestone Oven Dismantling and Rebuild in Missouri

When a man reconstructs a classic car, he pays a fortune to provide the original parts hoping to restore it to its factory state in spite of his awareness that it will still perform as poor as old fashioned cars. However, other people prefer to restore classic cars by maintaining their appearance while powering the hidden moving equipment by providing a stronger engine, a more efficient power train, and an adequate power steering..
I think tractorman is doing both. He did the first in this oven, and will do the second in his second oven as he told. I find that a very cool idea.

BINGO on the performance reference. A perfect example of our intentions. Hopefully gleaning input on how to make it more efficient will result in the next build having a high performance engine, better braking and power steering hidden underneath.

Great comment !! Thank you !!

[stonecutter]

Re: 1880's Limestone Oven Dismantling and Rebuild in Missouri

One other thing. If you would like the next oven to have more mass than simply the brick, then clad the oven with a layer of reinforced fire mortar. The thickness is up to you, but I would recommend no more than 2" at the very most. Then apply your batt or blanket insulation, and 3"-4" of perl/verm-Crete at 8-10:1....then your stone veneer can be mortared directly to the insulation.

[tractorman44]

Re: 1880's Limestone Oven Dismantling and Rebuild in Missouri

One on the go DIY question. If I want to bend a metal TUBE using the same technique you have used, how can I guarantee that the tube ends up as a perfect torus I mean with no irregularities? One thought came to me is to fill it with sand and close both of the ends before bending!! May that help regulate the inner pressure on the walls of the tube to oppose local deformation that hammering will cause?

I've heard of that being suggested the technique before on square tubing though I've not personally done it. As with anything, I'm sure there's a learning curve so usually the first one will tell you if the concept is viable or not.

One problem will be bending it without a twist if it is intended to be bent in a 90 degree angle or more. At least that's somewhat of a problem with round piping material. About the third try it ends up just right.... If you use heat it'll bend pretty easily but it really needs to be bent around a "die" or at least around a pattern of the desired radius for support.

[tractorman44]

Re: 1880's Limestone Oven Dismantling and Rebuild in Missouri

My assessment was not meant to discourage or criticize the build, but share what can or will happen. I share the same viewpoint mentioned by Tscar, that it's best to have a full understanding of the scope of an application, technique or method...especially in a place like here. New builders are looking for information, and sometimes the limitations of material or improper technique needs to be discussed( the red brick thread is a recent one). It is not always well received, especially if time and resources have already been invested. I'm not saying this is the case with tractorman, because he's already said it's his first one, and he wants to improve the second oven.

I readily accept and actively request input that will help on the next one. No discouragement taken at any of the comments. I appreciate input you've provided and await more.

As with any trade stonecutter, its almost impossible for someone like myself to gain the aforementioned knowledge without experiencing some setbacks. Will I ever attain your level of expertise.....??? Not in this lifetime. I have no problem with having the improper techniques pointed out and hope to be enlightened to a much greater degree by the time this thread ends. And I agree wholeheartedly the need to discuss openly those errors in application or judgement to minimize the potential for someone else making those same mistakes.

That being said, please understand that any such discussion will be well received and greatly appreciated.

As always, thanks for your insight.

[tractorman44]

Re: 1880's Limestone Oven Dismantling and Rebuild in Missouri

I have enjoyed the build, and as you appear able to resource plenty of wood I expect it will work.

Its been a fun project and even if we fired the oven continually it would hardly make a dent in the wood pile....

It will be cool though to incorporate more fuel efficiency in the next one....and thanks for acknowledging that you are enjoying the build..

[tractorman44]

Re: 1880's Limestone Oven Dismantling and Rebuild in Missouri

Tractorman, I salute you for keeping the family treasures. You have done a great job of preserving history of your ancestors. My wife has property in SW Missouri and we know how important it is to document everything you can for your heirs. Great job!!!!!!!!!!! It will be a tribute to your kin to cook on their oven even in our own times. History is so important. They cooked breads,etc, but you will cook breads and so much more. Keep posting....absolutely love what you have done to help preserve your family history! In another 150 years or so, the oven will be on a different mountain in the Ozarks where your great grandkids have property.

jon

Thank you for the very kind words concerning preserving our history...and maybe you're right someday just maybe our own yet unborn greatgrandchildren can also pull this oven apart and rebuild it for themselves.

Just in case, we welded our initials and the build date into the metal arch and covered it with firebrick where it will remain unseen until this thing either falls apart or is dismantled.

As one who relishes family heritage, your post made me smile....

[cobblerdave]

Re: 1880's Limestone Oven Dismantling and Rebuild in Missouri

G'day tractorman
The side draft oven I have spoken off was in a little country town. Plenty of cheap wood but it was basically a one man operation. Modern transport and gas deck ovens meant its time was done.
In the 1970s a series of floods took the roads out and with drops of flour at the air field the old oven still had its place and supplies the district with bread . Again and again.
But by the eighties it closed and by the nineties it was finally pulled down.
Unlike the redbeard bakery the oven is no more. That one gets to live some more.
Its a shame that the old bakery is gone. My grandfather used to make the baking trays from "flat ware" folded plain steel sheet with no corners and wire in the tops. My aunt used to deliver bread.
And me I was the skinny kid who would walk down on a frosty morning at 5 am to collect the loaf for my grandad to take sandwiches to work that day.l
Warm bread never did smell as good, its tough to get that loaf home intact, but I did. My gran used to cook me an egg on fresh toast on my return. On a WFO too We were the first up in the household I'm still an early riser as a result I recon.
Regards dave

[tractorman44]

Re: 1880's Limestone Oven Dismantling and Rebuild in Missouri

Yes, I worded a very strong statement that this NOT how you should build a wood fired oven as a message to anyone in the future who reads this thread. I am not denigrating what Tractorman is doing, but explaining that there is a better way to do it.

I am in the industry, and see people on a regular basis build ovens that are not efficient or even suitable for the intended use. On a daily basis I deal with the issue of why the oven they spent thousands on does not "work".

Tractorman is not spending much money since he has the requisite materials on hand, but how would you feel if you spent a thousand or 10,000 bucks on an oven that could not perform to your expectations?

I totally agree that this is not the wood fired oven that just anyone should build...far from it actually. From an efficiency standpoint it is horrifically inefficient as compared to the modern FB and similar ovens.

Before I stumbled into this forum, I had never even heard of backyard pizza/bread ovens before and had only seen big open wood fired pizza ovens inside pizzarias. I guarantee in my town of roughly 10,000 people there is not one single oven in a back yard.

Let me say that perusing this forum has been an awesome and eyeopening experience. What a fount of information in the threads. Some phenomenal builds to say the least...absolutely awe inspiring. However, those types of awesome builds and the FB style was NOT what we were looking for because for the most part would not have filled the requirements of our original intent...and that intent was to build a "dinosaur" styled oven similar to ones built and used many, many decades ago.

Had I posted a picture of one of the near identical ovens built just across the river at Forte de Chartres, Illinois (where bi-annual events are held in honor of the French and Indian era) and indicated that this was the design so chosen for our build, would I have been directed to abandon the idea in a more favorable modern and efficient design? Or would I have been given ideas on how to build that style oven incorporating better techniques to increase efficiency?

Or is there absolutely nothing that can be done to incorporate the elusive "efficiency factor" in this style oven?

In building the next one, what would you suggest if the decision is made to maintain this style as the style of choice? What is "the better way to do it"?

A little later I will at length post how it was intended to be used and how it has turned out.

You are absolutely correct about disappointment surely faced if in fact many thousands of dollars were spent on an oven that does not work. We have the good fortune to have only spent money on refractory cement and mortar. You know the story of the stone already and the firebrick were donated by a family member. But just a hint as to its operation...don't be too sure with a (possibly premature) assessment that it doesn't work.....

Thanks for acknowledging no denigration was intended and feel free to answer any of the questions posed for the next build.

...and I do insist to prospective backyard builders that this is NOT the typical backyard pizza oven....and it is not to be built in this style if a modern and efficient oven is what you are looking for.

[Tscarborough]

Re: 1880's Limestone Oven Dismantling and Rebuild in Missouri

If you were going to make it period correct, you would probably have laid a bed of empty bottles (with sand in between) under the floor, and an air gap between the firebrick and the outer stone wall. Those 2 steps alone would have improved upon what you have, using modern materials, perlite concrete under and over would greatly improve it.

[cobblerdave]

Re: 1880's Limestone Oven Dismantling and Rebuild in Missouri

G'day tractorman
I'm missing hearing the rest of the story..... Or has the coming winter shut things down
Regards dave