Structural Slab for new WFO

[stonecutter]

Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

It seems like your only issue is the insulation layer, so tearing the oven apart doesn't make sense.

If it was me, I would remove the perlcrete and wrap the oven with ceramic, cover that with a new layer of perlcrete, then apply the stucco.

[mikku]

Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

now here is a question for people like Brickie of Oz and David S or Stonecutter or a multiple of experts out there. The ones listed above I have the utmost of respect for their opinions--also Lawrence! Forgot to mention you -- my every day mentor!

Now I have to think about this topic. The oven is cured, but it does not have a final render coat or anything to make the oven waterproof or water resistant--if there is a difference.

My oven heats up very quickly, but it looses heat equally quickly! If you have been following my thread, I have at least 4" of pericrete surrounding my entire dome.

The pericrete has cracked, so what--the castable has not! But where the cracks are, there are hot spots. Hot enough to make you pull your hand away because it is too hot! Other locations are cool, like around the insulated chimney.

I am thinking about adding a layer or two of ceramic fiber to the outside of my render, then apply chicken wire and another coat of render!

Anyone see any problem with this idea? As long as the oven is insulated, the location of the insulation in the assembly is irrelevant--- RIGHT? Please, please correct me if I am wrong! If I add two layers of 1" thickness ceramic fiber to the outside of my --now half complete render coat, it should help retain heat longer--even though it is not the closest insulation in the total assembly!

My other alternative is to simply give up on the dome type oven style, make a box...out of light weight steel studding materials, cover the box with metal or concrete board or anything ---fill the cavity with vermiculite loose fill , install a sloped roof---make sure everything is water proof and call it good!

I'm tossing a lot of ideas around in my mind---I am really thinking about making a modular barrel type--like Brickie has but in castable-- make it larger to accommodate more bread making--and try some other options! This hole topic makes my mind go wild--anything is possible but I do not want a whole bunch of half finished ovens around my house! Maybe sell the one that I have and make a modular barrel--much larger!

My mind keeps wandering to different possibilities. How about some feedback on what to do with my current cast oven

This is a tough question--my present oven is not expensive by any means! it is labor intensive in the mold making area--but other things are really very cheap!

Brickie --what do you think? you had an oven that you tore back and rebuilt, if you were in my situation what would you do? Sell what you have and start a new design OR improve on the current design?

Davids- you have a very long time experience with castable ovens--make them every month........instead of a dome, what do you think of a barrel type like our friend in Canada made?

laurentius, I already have your thoughts but you can add to them as you wish!

I have a few days off--like "3" before starting a new project! I have a little time to think about alternatives. So please give me your honest
assessment!

That is it from this side of the planet--pray for peace during these crazy times in world politics!

[mikku]

Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

When I first thought of a WFO, it was because people in the past baked that way! And always things from a long time ago--I remember as being superior in flavor--really something to remember.

My wife has baked great things for 42 years next month. As much an expert as there can be. But she saw this as another one of my stupid hobbies, like motorcycles, scuba diving, sports car restoration, collecting antiques which she calls junk, selling our home in the USA and moving to Japan--as an adventure--trying to keep from getting old!

But gradually she has seen how this stupid hobby of mine produces some good things--even if it has been "MY AMATEUR" attempts at doing things. Once she gets the hang of it---their might be a little harmony in the house. And once the oven gets onto a stand instead of being at ground level, things should improve.

Yep! It takes a lot of planning to coax her to try my toy oven! Now she is talking about it being indoors! That is on my list already!

If you need testimonials of the baking skills, just ask my neighbors near and far! Some of the goods get UPS'd to distant locations!

[texman]

Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

Getting the wife to work the oven-now there is an idea!

Sounds like good times across the pond.

Texman

[mikku]

Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

Yesterday was the first day that my wife took care of the oven herself.
I started it and showed her the technique of kindling pile--start in transition--then push to rear once it starts to burn! works like a charm, I loaded it up once before leaving for work and instructed her to add 4 or 5 pieces of oak two more times, then let the fire burn down. Told her to put the insulated door on when the burn was complete. In the evening the internal temp was around 350C after 7 hours of sitting idle. 5:30 the next morning it sat at 260C, a temp she can begin to bake anything.

she made several batches of cookies, and some bread during the day. Everything turned out great---she has patience with baking only! No patience with me! some of her product got mailed out to friends, other got put into the freezer to retain freshness. Now when I want an evening snack, I have to chew on an frozen cookie!

Life if tough!

[Laurentius]

Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

Hi Mikku,

The cookies are fantastic, your wife is a much better baker than I. I had to skip lunch yesterday because of too many cookies and milk. No, to baskets. The wish list is difficult for me, I've spent the last 30 years trying not to want things that are not related to or enhance my creativity. I'm drawn to things that I feel the passion of the maker and their pride in the finished item.
I will think about it and if you see anything that you think has my name on it, get it for me, please.

[mikku]

Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

Russell- don't be disappointed, my wife has baked bread for 40 years --first time was when we were first married and I wanted to show off that she could do as good as Mama! But Mama used short cuts for rolls like using frozen bread. My wife and I practiced many ---many times in making cressant rolls and when she had the technique down pat, we made them for Thanksgiving---that was maybe 1972..... It is funny how out of necessity to succeed, a great hobby is formed. The trouble is--in 1972, I was 5-11, 174#, a lot of muscle from running and being a USMarine. I blame my big belly on her good baking............But that is 41 years of baking and every time it gets better!

Sheetmetal should be available in 4x8 sheets USA, we have 3x6x.035 selling for about $4.00/sheet. If you have a brake, that is all you need besides a couple of good snips and those hand thing-a-ma-doos for bending sheetmetal by hand. You have chosed something that makes a professional with a lifetime of sheetmetal work either cringe or smile in delight. It all depends on the demeanor of the worker. If tough is a challenge---then a smile. if tough is a headache, then upside down smile for even a trained super craftsman. So Russell really take your time, learn the techniques, then do the best you can!!!!!!!!!!!it will be better than the best craftsmen out there because you are doing it with more incentive than most have---The incentive to do something that most persons call impossible!

As for the garden, my wife puts many hours each day into taking care of the plants that she grows. I think she spends way toooooooo much time with her hobby. You cannot find a weed anywhere, and the soil is turned over multiple times a week, if it needs it or not! The soil here is fertile, and black; she tests it continuously and adds whatever is necessary to meet the growing requirements of each plant!

We also have ample amounts of rain, sunny days and cool nights. All great growing conditions for just about anything! It is not the tropics but sometimes we have tropical weather. Hang in there!

Really I think you should work on a roof enclosure to cover your entire oven and preparation areas. If that was completed during these hot months, and your oven could be either moved or surrounded by this structure, then you could use a portable heater and shop lights to work on your oven----no matter the time of year or weather conditions.

I'm on my 4th evening tranquilizer so forgive the rambling. Keep the pictures coming!

Mikku

[UtahBeehiver]

Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

Mikku,

I have to say my first attempt of bread making was not stellar. Actually a little shy in posting my first try at bread. Edible and such but just can't hold a candle to pics I have seen by pro bread makers on the forum. Will try again in a couple weeks when I have the neighborhood pizza party. I did cut out some blank galvanize sheets from an old scrounged duct work to start my self taught training session on metal forming. Just need to get with it. Seems everyone's garden is having bumper crops except me

[mikku]

Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

Lawrence-
Hint taken-cookies are in the mail! Not like someone that we know, they got off Monday morning early on my way to work- via Kuronikku Takubin (UPS Japan).

No need for barter, you do more than I could ever repay in a lifetime. Thanks for all your assistance. How is the list coming for "scavenge items" when I am looking for antiques. The "Utsunomiya Shinyo-kinko 30 year special casting tea pot" seems to have taken up residency in my office. When I come across its' twin. I know where it will be traveling to. Also, any high quality old Japanese knives or farming grass hooks- like scythes or interesting old stuff has to come in pairs also--I'm dibsing the first one but if there are two, your name is on it! What is your taste in old pottery, tonsu chests, lanterns, and stuff like that? I have an eye on a property on the way to work.......have to speak to Numao about approaching the owner...if still alive. He has all the techniques down pat from 40 years of picking... sure loved looking at some of his stuff from the Edo period and Early Meiji period!
Do you have any interest in woven bamboo baskets--like those used for gathering mushrooms and stuff like that?

Really need a list--But thanks again for your help on the sourdough bread!

Forgot to tell you about the old coke or coal burning stoves that I saw over the week-end. My new acquaintance has two--but different styles, but they were used on trains for heat in the --maybe last car (furthest away from the steam locomotive)... Really are beautiful castings that still have a glow to their finish--not a spot of rust in sight! Argh right! Just seeing them makes a person appreciate good craftsmanship!

Back to Utah! I made a stupid comment some months back about once an oven is half finished or finished enough to burn wood......all the original incentive to build becomes lost because you can begin to appreciate what an oven can do!!! Mine has sat for 6 months in the same spot! The cracks in the insulation layer become larger--but the oven is crackles! Have to get around to finishing it -- But what is the incentive when on your day off you want to make pizza, bread, steak, fish, vegetables, cookies, snacks .......then you have no ambition to get your fingers dirty with another insulation layer, or plaster coat or even build the base!

Back to novel writing........

Have you gotten started on the copper yet?
I really think that you need to do everything twice. Galvanized .035 metal is dirt cheap! You could do a mock up in galva then when you have all the confidence built up to tackle copper--you will have confidence AND ability because of your experience with the galva.

We have a bumper crop of tomatoes, don't know the names but they are an oval shaped fruit tomato--just pop them in your mouth. We put ones slice in half on top of pizzas and they were great! We also have some large like (2" to 2 1/2" diameter) that are firm and tasty. Looks like a bumper crop of squash--every day there are more flowers that have succeeded in being germinated! The cucumbers look like logs, because we cannot keep up with picking or consuming them----even the neighbor is getting a little tired of cukes!

That's it from the far side of the world! The side that is dark when you are light--half ahead---SO, lets see some pictures of your FRENCH Bread!

[Laurentius]

Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

Mikku-sama,

Please drop a subtle hint to your wife the Peanut Butter cookies are my favorite and you just might score some Caputo 00 pizza flour.

[UtahBeehiver]

Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

Mikku,

Half a world away, I did the same thing last night, except my group was only 11. So today, I am also trying to make bread for the first time in my oven. Nothing as complex as your sour dough, doing French bread. They are in the final stage of raising then in the oven they go. My residual heat right now is 400-425 F and then planning on doing blacken salmon after that for dinner.

[mikku]

Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

Today is the last day for "Obon Yasumi" or Summer vacation for most of the people in Japan. This week-end was the second time that I have had a bunch of people over for pizza and things. Probably 20 people last night and most of them at one time put on latex gloves and got into the act of stretching dough and preparing pizza. It sure makes a big difference when you can change from being the lone ranger making all the pizzas to the host that makes the gathering possible.

The day before, my wife and I were guided though the steps of making sourdough bread by Lawrence Sensei. It is sure nice to have his expertise available as we ventured into new territory of bread making. For those of you who have not tried it before--a bit of warning. "It takes a very long time to do this type of recipe" If you don't have the time or patience--don't even attempt it...

The results were fantastic. My guests last night polished off everything that was made plus a couple loaves of potato bread and blueberry cake. Also grilled some steak --after that pork ribs, then back to pizza for the end of the evening.

I ended up just putting the door in place when I decided to quit for the evening. the small holes left for attaching the handles must have leaked enough oxygen into the oven because there were still active coals present this morning and the temperature was at 310degC.

Wife decided to make cookies and banana loaf but the oven cools so slowly now that it was after 5PM before she could get cookie baking temperatures. She is finally getting the hang of things--using the oven when I am off at work.

Out of the 10 days most people take for summer vacation, I ended up with one actual day off. The rest of the time been busy with scheduling work and making new contacts. Seems like the economy is turning around a bit this year.

[mikku]

Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

Door in progress-





Same time I got wood stove woven rope (door seal) and furnace cement to attach to rope to the door surround. That should seal things up nicely! Have to wait a few days to put the time into finishing the door!

[mikku]

Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

Gee how time flies when your having fun!

My WFO still sits where I moved it a couple of months ago, no stand under a heavy duty tarp that keeps things dry.

If there is time, I fire it up on Sundays to keep it dried out.

It is the rainy season here so the weather is unpredictable--nearing August, the skies should clear and the really HOT of summer should be felt.

Still the evenings are cool enough to sleep without air conditioning because of the way the wind directions change in the late afternoon.

Almost every day between 5 and 6, whatever stagnant air has accumulated around here gets pushed out by the cool air falling from the nearby mountains- Nantai-san, Shirani-san, and another with a name I keep forgetting...Actually the mountains (called the Minami Alps) begin here and traverse the length of Japan--with mountains almost continuous to the Japan sea side of the island. Really a lot of rugged terrain and interesting roads to travel--when there is time to get out to adventure.

I am beginning to learn a few things about using a WFO--I guess it all takes time, each oven is a little different...so no one can really give exact advice on how to fire one over the other.

Sunday, I did not start a fire until early afternoon 1530 or later...after it began burning nicely...I loaded it completely with dry oak firewood and let it roar. Really not too much roaring but the fire quickly heated the oven to what I believe a saturated temperature. I quit putting wood into the oven around 1800 and removed the coals at 2000. Instead of using a "blow tube" that you physically blow into, I took a 5' section of 3/8" flexible copper tubing , one end flared and used the "blow gun" and compressor to blast air into the oven!

It makes a pretty good cloud of ash dust, but it does clean the oven nicely. I just stay out of the line of the hot ashes and left over charcoal pieces that fly around!

Since I do not own any peels yet, I put a pizza--maybe 12" diameter on a pizza pan into the oven. I noticed that the crust started moving around as soon as the pan hit the bricks. After checking several times (the bottom of the crust) for browning- I removed the pizza in a little over 3 minutes. Everything looked fine and the crust was not burnt in anyway! Just a nice crust.

While removing the pizza, it started to sprinkle and rain developed quickly! I had already removed the SS chimney when I blew the ashes out--so all that was needed was to put something over the chimney hole--a couple of firebrick that were handy and then pull the tarp over to keep water away! I really hope I can find time to make an enclosure and base for this oven. Like Brickie was saying before--to paraphrase his comment--just another Japanese thing that you had to kneel down to use! The kneeling down is beginning to be a pain in the butt!

Oven holds heat pretty well, morning after temperature still over 260degC, roasted a block of beef in the morning--evening temperature still over 200deg C.
Ended up baking a few loafs of bread the following day!

I'll see if there is some pictures to attach..
Nice to use the oven--even though it is not done!









The oven really fires up quickly, the entire casting shows no signs of cracking. It is a 2 piece dome, with separate transition to landing and chimney. I don't know all the fuss about brick cracking???? The pericrete has cracked and so has the render (first coat).

funny thing today, I found a shop that I can buy any length pieces of ceramic fiber. This is a woodstove shop that carries it all the time. I bought a piece .5m x1m today 25mm thick, that I will put two layers thick into my stainless oven door.

Maybe I should show the door in progress?

[mikku]

Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

Back to my oven operation.
This is maybe the 7th time to fire the WFO.
Still sitting on a temporary base--like Brickies observation--too low like all Japanese furniture!

I started the oven at 8:30 this morning with some kindling and three pieces of dry oak. I start the oven with the wood about flush with the intersection of the dome and entrance. This is a smoky place to burn--the flames wash over the oven opening and are drawn up the chimney--but excess smoke rolls out the front.

Once that the fire establishes itself, I take a stick and push the entire fire to the rear of the oven--at that point the flames lick across the top of the dome and swirl around --what exits the oven is only heat--and very little visable smoke.

Once that the fire was pushed to the center rear, I added two more sticks of oak.

At 9:30, there was a glowing bed of coals and remnants of the oak spread over the floor of the oven. I took an IR temperature reading and it registered 575 deg C rear wall about 8" up.

On previous days of burning, I would have added another 3 or 4 pieces of oak and let it really burn clean for another hour or so. But on other days, the temperature maxed my IR thermometer and the oven was unusable until the temp dropped into baking ranges. Today, instead of firing another time--I removed the coals and asked my wife to put the oven door in place at 11:30--hoping that it would be enough time to cool so that my door would not spontaneously combust.

I had work to do today--like a job. So I returned to the house at 13:30--and placed my little bimetal thermometer into the oven and closed the door again. After about 10 minutes, all that the oven read was about 350 deg F. Normal temperature for bread making in a standard gas oven.

My wife had mixed dough for Rye bread and had punched it down just minutes before I return home.. I told her that she could bake once the bread rose again but she wanted to wait until I returned...

Work lasted longer than I expected and my wife decided to bake the bread in our normal Magic Chef--She was upset that I was gone all day--leaving the WFO unattended, and did not want to screw around with her trying to learn how to bake in a WFO...

Cannot win for loosing!
At least there is fresh bread--but an angry wife retired for the evening--tired of waiting for me again!

Oven heats very quickly--but I need to determine when it is saturated. Those with thermal couples would know easily by looking at their read outs. I'll have to learn by watching and measuring how long it takes to heat--then see how long it will stay hot...

Only thing accomplished with the WFO was to find out that even though the oven heats quickly--doesn't mean that the mass is heated sufficiently to bake bread --6 hours after removing the coals???