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Yup, I'm new here, sorta. I've done a ton of reading over the last few weeks, often I start by searching something specific about construction and end up reading 30 pages of build threads. If left to my own devices I might not live long enough to finish my own build. Not that I'm in a hurry. At this point I only hope to build the base in the coming year.
Some background, I've been enjoying pizza since before man walked on the moon, but until recently I'd only tried making my own a few times. In spite of being surrounded by great pizza places I've recently become interested in making my own, for now I want to perfect my Neapolitan and then I'll move on to other styles. I'm getting closer to the target but I've reached the point where a pizza stone in my oven isn't cutting it any more, 567°F just isn't enough. I bought an Ooni Karu 12 and, while I'm loving the wood/coal option, it became obvious that it was just a stepping stone the first time I used it. Now I'm thinking about the next step. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot I like about the little Ooni and it suits my needs in a few ways that might not be so easy with a brick oven. Still, I'm thinking there might be a brick oven design that fits my needs. On that note, I'm looking to build something that will serve as a base/work surface for the Ooni for now and will eventually have a brick oven built on it. To reach that goal, I need to design the oven so I can design the base that will hold it. This is where the "fits my needs" comes in.
My needs are simple, I want something that can get to Neapolitan cooking temps, heats quickly using as little wood as possible and takes as little space in my small, suburban yard as possible. Easy, right? As a trade off, residual heat cooking is not important to me at all and i don't need capacity for a crowd so small is OK.
Friday is pizza night for the wife and I, it's been that way since '84 and we're empty nesters now so it's usually two, 12" pizzas. That's it 2 pizzas a week and no residual heat cooking, not much point preheating for 3 hours or a ton of thermal mass. This should be the Ooni's strong point, fast to heat, minimal fuel, put it away when done, so what's the problem. Well, its winter in NJ and it's tough to get over 650-700° and you need to continuously feed the tiny pieces of wood to keep the temp there. It's also a little small, a 12" pizza fits, but turning it in a 13.5" space is tricky. A little more elbow room would be nice. A bigger portable might be a reasonable option, but I still need a base for it and, if I can build in enough storage space, a portable could be stored inside.
But I still like the idea of a masonry oven.
Size is the bigger issue, the spot I'd prefer to use would be great for counterspace but it's long and narrow for an oven. It's an unused raised bed, meant for herbs, carrots and radishes but it's been just weeds for a few years. It's 30"x96" I could stretch it out a couple inches, but it's at the corner of the patio and more than a couple inches might look funny. The 96" sidei is along a walkway, the 30" side is the corner of the patio so a narrow oven would face the patio, a wide shallow one would face the walk. The second spot is smaller, 30"x60"and there's no room at all to expand it, this o e is the herb garden and it's between the deck and the patio. I love to build a structure that would put the oven up at deck height but I don't think I can come up with a design that will fit. The deck and patio are both small enough that steeling space from either would be an issue. I dould drop a 36" square at the end of the patio but that option has other issues and I don't know that a couple inches is worth it, if I can come up with something that fits the other spaces.
Oven style is probably my first question. It looks like a low dome is best for Neapolitan, but I suspect a high dome or a barrel vault/arch should be adequate for my needs. Any suggestions for a space saving design? As I said, I make 12" pizzas, I would like to have the option to make the occasional 16" pie so I need an opening that's a 16" pizza will fit through and enough floor space to turn the pizza and maybe have a space for the fire. Any thoughts on an oblong dome, a little deeper than it is wide so the fire can be pushed to the rear and still leave a somewhat round cooking area? I've seen references to an oblong or egg shaped dome but I haven't found specifics. A barrel vault could easily be designed deeper than it is wide to work with the limited space.
Material choices and wall design will have a big impact. I'd like to end up with an inside width around 22-24", I'd also like to keep the outside dimension to 36"at the most and less would be better. This leaves me with a wall thickness of no more than 7". I know this can be done, the question I have is, how well does it work and how thin can I go. In theory, I need thermal mass to radiate heat, insulation to keep the heat inside and an outer shell to keep the weather out.
Thermal mass will impact both temperature consistency and warm up time. My most important consideration is probably finding the correct amount of thermal mass to meet my needs without going over. This goes for both the floor of the oven and also for the upper structure, but it seems to me that these are 2 separate issues. The pizza stone I've used in the oven offers some mass, but it that were enough, I wouldn't be here. The floor in the Ooni is twice as thick and is definitely better, but there's room for improvement. Since there isn't a limit on vertical space, I could go with the traditional brick floor. Or will that much mass in the floor add too much to my pre-heat time? Castable refractory would be an option as well if it would be better to go with something with less mass, or smaller bricks, i see there are bricks that are 9"x4.5"x1.25" this might be the happy medium between a pizza stone and full sized bricks. Has anyone used these? How does the floor impact preheating time? Am I crazy to be exploring these options? Is my goal of exchanging faster pre-heat for heat retention even possible? The next step is the mass in the walls/roof traditional designs use a ton of it, literally, in some cases. This is where the retained heat comes from but I don't need that. I have seen a couple designs that don't use it, I have no idea how well they work but I'm intrigued. The one that caught my eye was one that used a ball for a mold and covered it in vermiculite/concrete. Last I checked this mix is used for insulation and can be a fairly strong, lightweight concrete, but I wouldn't expect to be a good thermal mass. I think the goal here is to just keep the heat inside without storing it. This actually sounds perfect for me, if it works. Any input on this one? Has anyone here tried it? Is it ok to use this directly exposed to the inside of the oven or does it need a lining? Beyond that, there's castable, bricks of various thicknesses, and maybe others options. I'd be interested to hear opinions and ideas that might allow me to create a dome or barrel that could be created with a total wall thickness of 6" or less that would meet my needs of supporting a high temperature baking environment for short term use while not requiring an extended pre-heat.
I think I'm trying to create a masonry oven that has a lot in common with a portable. For now, I just want to build the base, but I'd like to put an oven on it in the future and I don't want to build the base twice or redesign the patio to do it. Sorry for the long post, I wanted to include plenty of detail.
Some background, I've been enjoying pizza since before man walked on the moon, but until recently I'd only tried making my own a few times. In spite of being surrounded by great pizza places I've recently become interested in making my own, for now I want to perfect my Neapolitan and then I'll move on to other styles. I'm getting closer to the target but I've reached the point where a pizza stone in my oven isn't cutting it any more, 567°F just isn't enough. I bought an Ooni Karu 12 and, while I'm loving the wood/coal option, it became obvious that it was just a stepping stone the first time I used it. Now I'm thinking about the next step. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot I like about the little Ooni and it suits my needs in a few ways that might not be so easy with a brick oven. Still, I'm thinking there might be a brick oven design that fits my needs. On that note, I'm looking to build something that will serve as a base/work surface for the Ooni for now and will eventually have a brick oven built on it. To reach that goal, I need to design the oven so I can design the base that will hold it. This is where the "fits my needs" comes in.
My needs are simple, I want something that can get to Neapolitan cooking temps, heats quickly using as little wood as possible and takes as little space in my small, suburban yard as possible. Easy, right? As a trade off, residual heat cooking is not important to me at all and i don't need capacity for a crowd so small is OK.
Friday is pizza night for the wife and I, it's been that way since '84 and we're empty nesters now so it's usually two, 12" pizzas. That's it 2 pizzas a week and no residual heat cooking, not much point preheating for 3 hours or a ton of thermal mass. This should be the Ooni's strong point, fast to heat, minimal fuel, put it away when done, so what's the problem. Well, its winter in NJ and it's tough to get over 650-700° and you need to continuously feed the tiny pieces of wood to keep the temp there. It's also a little small, a 12" pizza fits, but turning it in a 13.5" space is tricky. A little more elbow room would be nice. A bigger portable might be a reasonable option, but I still need a base for it and, if I can build in enough storage space, a portable could be stored inside.
But I still like the idea of a masonry oven.
Size is the bigger issue, the spot I'd prefer to use would be great for counterspace but it's long and narrow for an oven. It's an unused raised bed, meant for herbs, carrots and radishes but it's been just weeds for a few years. It's 30"x96" I could stretch it out a couple inches, but it's at the corner of the patio and more than a couple inches might look funny. The 96" sidei is along a walkway, the 30" side is the corner of the patio so a narrow oven would face the patio, a wide shallow one would face the walk. The second spot is smaller, 30"x60"and there's no room at all to expand it, this o e is the herb garden and it's between the deck and the patio. I love to build a structure that would put the oven up at deck height but I don't think I can come up with a design that will fit. The deck and patio are both small enough that steeling space from either would be an issue. I dould drop a 36" square at the end of the patio but that option has other issues and I don't know that a couple inches is worth it, if I can come up with something that fits the other spaces.
Oven style is probably my first question. It looks like a low dome is best for Neapolitan, but I suspect a high dome or a barrel vault/arch should be adequate for my needs. Any suggestions for a space saving design? As I said, I make 12" pizzas, I would like to have the option to make the occasional 16" pie so I need an opening that's a 16" pizza will fit through and enough floor space to turn the pizza and maybe have a space for the fire. Any thoughts on an oblong dome, a little deeper than it is wide so the fire can be pushed to the rear and still leave a somewhat round cooking area? I've seen references to an oblong or egg shaped dome but I haven't found specifics. A barrel vault could easily be designed deeper than it is wide to work with the limited space.
Material choices and wall design will have a big impact. I'd like to end up with an inside width around 22-24", I'd also like to keep the outside dimension to 36"at the most and less would be better. This leaves me with a wall thickness of no more than 7". I know this can be done, the question I have is, how well does it work and how thin can I go. In theory, I need thermal mass to radiate heat, insulation to keep the heat inside and an outer shell to keep the weather out.
Thermal mass will impact both temperature consistency and warm up time. My most important consideration is probably finding the correct amount of thermal mass to meet my needs without going over. This goes for both the floor of the oven and also for the upper structure, but it seems to me that these are 2 separate issues. The pizza stone I've used in the oven offers some mass, but it that were enough, I wouldn't be here. The floor in the Ooni is twice as thick and is definitely better, but there's room for improvement. Since there isn't a limit on vertical space, I could go with the traditional brick floor. Or will that much mass in the floor add too much to my pre-heat time? Castable refractory would be an option as well if it would be better to go with something with less mass, or smaller bricks, i see there are bricks that are 9"x4.5"x1.25" this might be the happy medium between a pizza stone and full sized bricks. Has anyone used these? How does the floor impact preheating time? Am I crazy to be exploring these options? Is my goal of exchanging faster pre-heat for heat retention even possible? The next step is the mass in the walls/roof traditional designs use a ton of it, literally, in some cases. This is where the retained heat comes from but I don't need that. I have seen a couple designs that don't use it, I have no idea how well they work but I'm intrigued. The one that caught my eye was one that used a ball for a mold and covered it in vermiculite/concrete. Last I checked this mix is used for insulation and can be a fairly strong, lightweight concrete, but I wouldn't expect to be a good thermal mass. I think the goal here is to just keep the heat inside without storing it. This actually sounds perfect for me, if it works. Any input on this one? Has anyone here tried it? Is it ok to use this directly exposed to the inside of the oven or does it need a lining? Beyond that, there's castable, bricks of various thicknesses, and maybe others options. I'd be interested to hear opinions and ideas that might allow me to create a dome or barrel that could be created with a total wall thickness of 6" or less that would meet my needs of supporting a high temperature baking environment for short term use while not requiring an extended pre-heat.
I think I'm trying to create a masonry oven that has a lot in common with a portable. For now, I just want to build the base, but I'd like to put an oven on it in the future and I don't want to build the base twice or redesign the patio to do it. Sorry for the long post, I wanted to include plenty of detail.
). You will need to consider some wood storage area as well. I'd also suggest getting away from the 12-16" pies for "tight spaces". Many of us simply make smaller pies for ourselves & guests...smaller means easier to make, work, & serve with a bonus of experiencing several different flavor/topping combos at pizza time. 
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