Under way in Socal

[Dino_Pizza]

Re: Under way in Socal

1st: Congrats on finally getting the oven started with a real completion date.

2nd: (if it's not too late) YES, a GOOD 1/4" is important. I mean, I've not gone into my dome with a micrometer but I just know there is that much expansion and since you appear to be leaning toward a reall soldier coarse (on-end brick surrounding the floor) use the double corrugated cardboard strips to get your 1/4" spacing from the herringbone floor.

Glade you are going with a flaired entry, for the tiny bit more work, you'll be glad you did.

Also, if I had it to do all over again, I would have taken the time to put in an expansion joint like John did, (to isolate the oven from the inner arch and vent box) but it will slow you down to stop and think and do some designing. I get the same way about having a thermocupler in the brick to temp the saturation. But, I don't have them and love the wfo just the same .

Lot's of luck and have fun building it.
-Dino

[cnicholson]

Re: Under way in Socal

Thanks Dino...now I just have to be militant about sticking to my goal! It's kinda hard when I have ZERO idea of how long this is really going to take. It's like everything else that gets broken down into pieces...you don't realize how many pieces your actually putting together.

I'm still scrubbing through threads to get ideas on the best way to do a thermal break and exactly where. After looking at what seems like 100 threads I've almost come to the conclusion that:

1. If you screw up the break by design or execution, you run the risk of having a seive of sorts for heat loss.

2. The vent landing floor is part of the oven floor in almost every build I have seen. I would think that this would be the biggest potential source for heat loss and everyone's oven seems to be holding heat.

3. The extra thermal mass in the vent arches is not that big of a deal as long as you have an outer arch and chimney brick with at least an airspace between, if not insulation.

Heck, I'm still trying to wrap my head around how to cut the bricks at the entry vent so I'm almost outthinking my own build...crazy....

Thanks again for all the help!

[WJW]

Re: Under way in Socal

For what it's worth on the gap between floor and walls...I did not leave a gap near the back wall and I have no doubt that's what caused the crak in the pic below...



Doesn't affect performance or structural stability because behind the bricks are four inches of insblock 19 ridgid insulation and eight inches of block and rebar...nowhere for anything to go, but I'd certainly prefer that it weren't there.

[cnicholson]

Re: Under way in Socal

Does this look right for the vent brick layout? I'm concerned with cutting the bricks to be less than 4 1/2" to accomodate the flare and having a straight spot of 8" or so towards the dome...I know I need to modify/cut my bricks for a reveal but wanted to make sure I was on the right track. Thanks!!

[Les]

Re: Under way in Socal

Does this look right for the vent brick layout?

I may be WAY off base but are you referring to the entry layout? If this is your vent I need more wine

[GianniFocaccia]

Re: Under way in Socal

Interesting entry design. Looking forward to seeing your inner arch config. Planning a heatbreak?

[cnicholson]

Re: Under way in Socal

Les- you are correct my man... my vocabulary had escaped me on that post as I had spent about 15 mins composing a 3 part question and then when I hit reply **poof** gone, so I got in a hurry..

John- The heatbreak is something I'm still trying to figure out. Not sure if its in the cards with the way its laying out. Do you think it's a crucial element or? I'm not planning on baking 100 loaves of bread per firing but would like to have a reasonable expectation of heat retention for an occasional roast.

[cnicholson]

Re: Under way in Socal

Another head scratcher I was looking at this am...

From my design you can probably see I'm setting the dome on the first layer of splits and then cutting another layer to fit inside for a full 2 1/2" depth floor. Opting for not using a traditional soldier course, I'm using a full firebrick for the first course so as not to leave a seam st floor level to catch a peel in between.

I'm also leaving a 1/4-3/8" gap in the floor/wall which after much welcomed advice makes quite a bit of sense.

So the thought I had was where the last full size, first course, dome brick contacts the entry brick, to cut the floor brick and drop the dome brick like all the others. On that portion of floor I would have the entry bricks float on top of the floor to accomodate expansion/contraction.

My reasoning for this is that if I left the same 1/4"-3/8" gap in the entry bricks that would effectively give a channel on each side for heat loss even with the door on.

Or another thought I had was to drop the entry bricks as well, leave the floor gap and taper it to nothing on the entry bricks about 3" (door thickness) out.

Thanks all!!!

[GianniFocaccia]

Re: Under way in Socal

No, a heat break is not required. I like the idea of using retained heat for several days so have invested the time in designing one.

So the thought I had was where the last full size, first course, dome brick contacts the entry brick, to cut the floor brick and drop the dome brick like all the others. On that portion of floor I would have the entry bricks float on top of the floor to accommodate expansion/contraction

As long as you're just extending the two-layer floor out from the oven into the entryway, you're good. You might make the pattern of the bottom layer of entryway splits perpendicular to the outer arch walls so you aren't left with tiny triangles.

[cnicholson]

Re: Under way in Socal

Thanks John... The way the oven has been laid out so far, and the entry arch bricks sitting on top of the entry floor bricks a heat break isn't making sense to me at this point. Maybe once I start going up it will become a little more obvious. I'm not too concerned about incorporating one at the dome but I am going to put one at the vent floor/entry hearth. I figure that is a true naked spot as the front edge of the cooking floor wouldn't traditionally be insulated.

I'm planning on a poured concrete hearth with an 1 1/2" L notch at the edge where it meets the vent landing and perlcreting between the two. We'll see. Thanks again for the advice!

I hope to get the rest of the floor/entry cut and hopefully set today...

[billwil]

Re: Under way in Socal

Congrats on getting started. I'm hoping to start mine in San Elijo Hills in the next month or two, but I've got a whole backyard to have done, so it's part of a bigger project. I could be in way over my head. This also means I have more questions than answers at this point...but I guess that's normal. I'll watch with interest as you go through your build. Let me know if you want help with anything since I'm so close.

BTW, where did you get the splits you're using?

Bill~

[cnicholson]

Re: Under way in Socal

Hi Bill.. got the splits as seconds from Pacific Clay in Lake Elsinore, $.25 per brick so I couldn't go wrong! If you need to borrow a tile saw let me know..I bought a very used MK101 off craigslist and, long story short, don't think I would want to sell it to someone but it cuts the heck outta these bricks... I do need to tile a shower ceiling after this but I should be done with it in a month or so (I better be anyways!!)

Know the feeling of the whole backyard...mine is a project 10 yrs in the making... I finally admitted defeat a month ago and hired a gardener!

[cnicholson]

Re: Under way in Socal

Ok...I'll admit it.. I didn't do anything this afternoon WFO...I went to the beach with the fam and then took a nap!!

But I did have a thought,

John you have me thinking about the firebreak now, and I'm a big believer in doing thing right the first time, soooo.... My idea is to drop the first row brick onto the subfloor, then angle cut the brick where it meets the entry arch base bricks to leave a consistent 1/2" or so gap for the firebreak and continue that as I go up with the dome. In that, the dome will move independent of the subfloor, the inner floor will move independent of that w/ the gap and the arch will float on top of the entry floor, this seems correct from a thermal expansion standpoint? Two things I question with this design:

1. Does this weaken the dome as at one point since it really hangs in space at the break?

2. What to fill the break with? I've seen soooo many things but the pesky little thing called gravity would lead me to believe anything you put in that space, that wasn't an adhesive, would fall to the floor after some thermal cycles?

Maybe I shouldn't have had that last glass of wine...

[UtahBeehiver]

Re: Under way in Socal

Cnicholson,

Been watching your progress, the fun is just beginning. You are asking one of the right people by asking GF for feedback. I used his build as well as a handful of others as my bar to shoot for. I utilized GF's idea on a thermal break between my dome arch and vent arch. I attached a pic and maybe it will help. It is not truly floating since there is a 3/4" flat spot that butts up against the dome arch. I am filling the gap with a cermamic rope and probably going to use a high temp caulk over the rope. Good luck with your build.

[GianniFocaccia]

Re: Under way in Socal

Russell nailed it, and his pic illustrates perfectly how I think it should look. IMO, a heatbreak will pay endless dividends after the initial construction is dealt with. I would build my dome and inner arch as competently as I could, and construct your entryway vault and vent separately. Other builders here have assured me that gravity will keep your entryway from shifting away from the oven.

Regarding the multiple-level floor, build the oven and entryway floors the same, with a heatbreak between the two.

Many times I find myself over-thinking the oven design and an additional glass of wine helps simplify (and clarify) the situation.