outdoor kitchen and oven base

[Campmaki]

Well I have quite a bit to learn about downloading pictures, I hope you will excuse my lack of office knowledge. The pictures I posted,oppps my wife posted are of the start of my 2 part build. Outdoor kitchen and pizza oven. I started last 4thof July and put it to bed in early October. Now to get at it again. This build is at a campground in central Wisconsin on a permanent campsite I stay at on weekends during the warmer months. It started with a very large hole in the ground for footings and frost walls. I used 12 inch block for both foundations. Eight inch thick footings and 6 courses of block. I got the limestone slabs from a job I ran earlier in the spring, these being the counter tops. The "bar top" stones came from a previous job that the supplier made wrong. These two stone types were used to configure my radius kitchen. I cut cardboard templates to actual size of counter stones as well as bar top stones. I then had a large cardboard template to layout the radius on the footing. Then I laid two 12 inch block walls, side by side on a radius. Took a day each for oven and kitchen foundation block. Next I poured a slab over each and started the 8 inch backup block, followed by the limestone stone laid up in a randon ashlar pattern. Leaving opening for a refrig, sink cutout and 39 inch gas griddle. Once the veneer was complete I set the 4 inch thick limestone counter pieces in place. These are held in place with stainless steel pins and epoxyed to the top of the last course of block. I should mention that any water that gets in the cavity between stone and block will get out as the backup block is completely covered with an air/vapor barrier with mortar net weepers at the bottom course, so if you notice holes at the bottom, they do serve a purpose. As far as the oven base , the bottom 12" is precast concrete from another job,lol with my remaining stone on top of that. Now I will switch to modular brick from there up. Still thinking about the type of pattern I will lay up,but I am leaning towards flemished with V stuck joints. All work above grade on the oven has taken place over the last 2 weekends, hope to start the oven this weekend. I am using the homebrew method of mortar. Hope to have the oven done in two weekends and the vent in one. We will see, I will post more as I progress. Thanks Wayne

[Campmaki]

Re: outdoor kitchen and oven base

One thing I did not mention was that after the oven build is completed all the masonry, except oven will get a good masonry washing to remove any dust and mortar stains,etc. I used Sure Klean 600 cleaner mixed 15 parts water to 1 part cleaner on the kitchen. The kitchen has some work to be completed yet, steel doors for under sink and under griddle. Hooking up the water which will require some trenching. And additional caulking here and there.

[stonecutter]

Re: outdoor kitchen and oven base

Flemish is a nice look, one of my favorites as a matter of fact, and a v joint should compliment it nicely.


I must ask though....why bother with a cavity wall on the bases? You trying to burn up leftover membrane and mortar net that's been laying around?

Oh, and very tidy stone work. I like the clean lines of the layout too, well done.

[Greenman]

Re: outdoor kitchen and oven base

Hey Wayne

That looks good. You obviously have a great eye for detail and I look forward to watching your oven build. If it is as neat and clean as what you have done so far it will be grand.

[Campmaki]

Re: outdoor kitchen and oven base

Flemish is a nice look, one of my favorites as a matter of fact, and a v joint should compliment it nicely.


I must ask though....why bother with a cavity wall on the bases? You trying to burn up leftover membrane and mortar net that's been laying around?

Oh, and very tidy stone work. I like the clean lines of the layout too, well done.

Stonecutter, the air/vapor barrier is to allow all moisture to exit the cavity and keep it dry. In years past, everything was filled solid behind veneer. This would cause problems with water freezing inside the masonry and blowing everything apart. I have a beautiful brick lamp post in my front yard and it was made solid, not good. It needs to come down because it is cracked. The air/vapor barrier will not be close to the oven because this will cause what is called drool. I need to made sure the heat of my backup walls stays ambient. Thanks for the comments, all are appreciated. The more the better

[stonecutter]

Re: outdoor kitchen and oven base

Stonecutter, the air/vapor barrier is to allow all moisture to exit the cavity and keep it dry. In years past, everything was filled solid behind veneer. This would cause problems with water freezing inside the masonry and blowing everything apart. I have a beautiful brick lamp post in my front yard and it was made solid, not good. It needs to come down because it is cracked. The air/vapor barrier will not be close to the oven because this will cause what is called drool. I need to made sure the heat of my backup walls stays ambient. Thanks for the comments, all are appreciated. The more the better

I have built cavity walls, and I'm familiar with the components and how they function. I don't see cavity walls for veneer covering solid masonry walls often, they are usually reserved for living space or framed structural walls.
I'm from New England and we have brutal freeze thaw cycles up there. The only time I've seen a problem with blow out, is when the masons did not backfill properly and left voids behind the stone or brick....or did a poor job bedding and pointing the joints. I know about drool as it relate to membrane too, I've seen repairs of membrane that slumped from excessive heat inside the cavity. As with any construction innovation, it comes with its own limitations. You trade on headache for another, and play the famous game, what's worse. Obviously, listing your veneer to frost damage is not a good scenario.

I was only curious why you did it, not because I think anything is wrong.

[Campmaki]

Re: outdoor kitchen and oven base

Stonecutter, you are correct with your statement about cavity walls and heated spaces. I believe the worse thing you can do if let water stay in the cavity, heated or not. My build is going to be somewhat different in that it will not have a roof structure per say. I will lay up my side walls out of brick to an elevation which allows me to set a granite slab on it and cap it off, lets say 12 inches wide. Then I plan on starting another brick wall set back from the back edge of the slab. In essence I would be making a stepped brick enclousure with granite slabs to cap them off. The backup walls for the brick will be structural stud cuttoffs,FREE, with cement board covered with air/vapor barrier. Now if the oven is properly insulated with 3 in. of blanket and the backup wall is not touching the insulation, how warm do you think the back side of the cement board will get? The vapor barrier system needs to be a complete envelope , top to bottom so no moisture freezes in the cavity or gets near the ovens insulation or it is all over but the crying. Mostly important is under any horizontal laid masonry, ie, the slabs. These slabs would be caulked around the bottom where they sit on the brick as these are two different materials. Give me thoughts.

[Campmaki]

Exterior oven insulation temperatures

Without searching high and low, a quick question? Temperature at the outside of the 3 inches of insulation after taking an oven up to max temp? Somewhere I read ambient or air temperature, all thoughts appreciated.

[stonecutter]

Re: outdoor kitchen and oven base

Stonecutter, you are correct with your statement about cavity walls and heated spaces. I believe the worse thing you can do if let water stay in the cavity, heated or not. My build is going to be somewhat different in that it will not have a roof structure per say. I will lay up my side walls out of brick to an elevation which allows me to set a granite slab on it and cap it off, lets say 12 inches wide. Then I plan on starting another brick wall set back from the back edge of the slab. In essence I would be making a stepped brick enclousure with granite slabs to cap them off. The backup walls for the brick will be structural stud cuttoffs,FREE, with cement board covered with air/vapor barrier. Now if the oven is properly insulated with 3 in. of blanket and the backup wall is not touching the insulation, how warm do you think the back side of the cement board will get? The vapor barrier system needs to be a complete envelope , top to bottom so no moisture freezes in the cavity or gets near the ovens insulation or it is all over but the crying. Mostly important is under any horizontal laid masonry, ie, the slabs. These slabs would be caulked around the bottom where they sit on the brick as these are two different materials. Give me thoughts.

Hard to say. What kind of insulation? With what you are doing I would go with ceramic.

[Campmaki]

Re: outdoor kitchen and oven base

Stonecutter, I am going with 2in ceramic under floor and 3 in of blanket over dome. Have been searching for answer but can not find it. It would help more if I loose filled also. But I need to be damn sure that there is not enough heat to cause the dreaded drool. I really believe this is the way to go. Eliminates all moisture issues. There are some beautiful builds on this site but I prefer something that doesn't resemble a dog house.Did I mention on the backside opposite the vent side, I am going with a large double brick arch, just the place to set my Tv for the Packer games. Do you recall any temp reading mentioned by anyone. Looked at Tremcos web site to see at temp drool occurs, but this usually happens when you have it to close to the exterior of the wall. In other words needs to be left back a min. of 1/2 in from face of wall or UV rays will cause drool. My thinking is excessive heat will do the same, BUT HOW MUCH HEAT? thoughts,send em here

[stonecutter]

Re: outdoor kitchen and oven base

Stonecutter, I am going with 2in ceramic under floor and 3 in of blanket over dome. Have been searching for answer but can not find it. It would help more if I loose filled also. But I need to be damn sure that there is not enough heat to cause the dreaded drool. I really believe this is the way to go. Eliminates all moisture issues. There are some beautiful builds on this site but I prefer something that doesn't resemble a dog house.Did I mention on the backside opposite the vent side, I am going with a large double brick arch, just the place to set my Tv for the Packer games. Do you recall any temp reading mentioned by anyone. Looked at Tremcos web site to see at temp drool occurs, but this usually happens when you have it to close to the exterior of the wall. In other words needs to be left back a min. of 1/2 in from face of wall or UV rays will cause drool. My thinking is excessive heat will do the same, BUT HOW MUCH HEAT? thoughts,send em here

I don't have a good visual about how you are closing off the top part of your structure. You had said that there are stepped back walls capped with granite...so it will have a stairway look to it? If you do that, don't you think that there is a need to flash each step, even if you pitch the cap? I might have the visual wrong...you have a drawing?

As far as temps on the outside of the insulation, I can't help you, it was never a concern....I like roofed enclosures for maximum weather protection. And I prefer to think of them as smaller versions of European communal ovens.....dog house is a pretty disparaging term IMO. Then again, I've said that a lot of ovens look like upside down toilets...so I don't have freeness of speech to say anything.

[Campmaki]

Re: outdoor kitchen and oven base

Stonecutter, called the regional Tremco specialist and asked him what the max temp would be when drool would start. His answer was 158 degrees. I guess I will have to just build the oven, dry it , insulate it and get a accurate temperature reading on the outside of the insulation. Any thoughts on how else I could do a test?

[NCMan]

Re: outdoor kitchen and oven base

Campmaki.....I finally got a chance to look over your pics. Nice looking work. That's some project you have there! I'll check in every once in awhile to follow your progress.

[stonecutter]

Re: outdoor kitchen and oven base

Stonecutter, called the regional Tremco specialist and asked him what the max temp would be when drool would start. His answer was 158 degrees. I guess I will have to just build the oven, dry it , insulate it and get a accurate temperature reading on the outside of the insulation. Any thoughts on how else I could do a test?

That's probably your best bet. Worse comes to worse you could use two layers of #30 felt if your temp gets over 150*. It flashes at just over 500*

[Campmaki]

Re: outdoor kitchen and oven base

I don't have a good visual about how you are closing off the top part of your structure. You had said that there are stepped back walls capped with granite...so it will have a stairway look to it? If you do that, don't you think that there is a need to flash each step, even if you pitch the cap? I might have the visual wrong...you have a drawing?

As far as temps on the outside of the insulation, I can't help you, it was never a concern....I like roofed enclosures for maximum weather protection. And I prefer to think of them as smaller versions of European communal ovens.....dog house is a pretty disparaging term IMO. Then again, I've said that a lot of ovens look like upside down toilets...so I don't have freeness of speech to say anything.

Stonecutter, That is a good comparision. It will be somewhat like stairs. Now that is where the Vapor barrier comes into play. It will be under the granite slabs, on the vertical backup wall surface{cement board} totally sealing the the oven compartment from weather. Sorry I do not have drawing as it is taking up a lot of space upstairs, in my head.