Acoma 42" Tuscan

[Acoma]

Re: Acoma 42" Tuscan

Dave, the only reason now for the thickness is for support. Do me a favor, and the rest of you as well. I see the concern for the gap, but once the flags were raised I went on a man hunt, sorry, oven hunt to see if any respected builders have had ovens with large spacing in back. Not to say I know more, but I want to move foreward with caution and stability.

Peter Moore did his 2006 oven gathering and had numerous spacings throughout. Not he is highly respected, as were some of the peers at the gathering. Please see the link and chime in. This is very, very important to me to here the feedback.

MHA News - 2006 Meeting - Backyard Oven with Peter Moore

[RTflorida]

Re: Acoma 42" Tuscan

I watched that build and had the same questions then as now - how will the thick joints hold up??? Maybe in a day or two some of the guys and gals that have gone down this path can offer some guidance. I know there were a couple of ovens going up around the same time as mine, they made several comments abour my tight joints and how they wished they had done the same. I know they are out , just don't remember who.

[Frances]

Re: Acoma 42" Tuscan

...isn't the oven in the pompeii oven plans originally built like this? Its built with simple half bricks, all these individually shaped bricks are not mentioned there at all, so the joints must be as big as necessary on the outside. I thought the inside joints were the issue, they need to be small. No?

My oven has big joints (and no cracks) but as the mortar I used is different, I'm afraid that is nothing to go by. But I figured when the mortar dries it turns into like little inbetween bricks, filling all the gaps. Its not as if the mortar isn't strong in its own right, it takes a certain amount of weight, too.

Thats what I think anyway... hope someone else chimes in who can help more.

[jcg31]

Re: Acoma 42" Tuscan

Robert,

How bout a call to Peter, the head mason at Forno Bravo. If he can't advise you he probably will be able to send you to someone who can.

Jim

[Acoma]

Re: Acoma 42" Tuscan

Jim, that and the possibility of James providing his email. Maybe James get get him to look at this as well and provide some feedback. James?

[asudavew]

Re: Acoma 42" Tuscan

Dave, without digging through all the post this late - how does your oven hold temps for the next day? Are you able to bake something the next day without a re-fire? I started this endeavor looking to build an Alan Scott, found this site and saw the rational of something less massive. There must be an advantage in between the two (for some). Just my thought.

Les...

Last weekend 24 hours after firing for pizza.
My oven was about 290f
I threw a brisket in, (it was 8pm sunday night.)
At 730 am the next morning, it was done perfect and the oven was still about 235f.
So it holds heat well, but heat up times are around 2 hours....

So give and take.
It's just what you prefer.
I would like faster heat up times....
And I probably have about a 1/2 inch of mortar cladding over most of the oven..

But then again, if I didnt have that cladding.... maybe I would be wishing my oven retained heat better.

Who knows!


If the main goal is pizza, i think no cladding. If pizza will be an ocassional thing, and bread and baking is the goal.
Then I suppose it would be better to clad!

My 3 cents.
cuz this is slightly more than 2

dwat

[asudavew]

Re: Acoma 42" Tuscan

Dave, the only reason now for the thickness is for support. Do me a favor, and the rest of you as well. I see the concern for the gap, but once the flags were raised I went on a man hunt, sorry, oven hunt to see if any respected builders have had ovens with large spacing in back. Not to say I know more, but I want to move foreward with caution and stability.

Peter Moore did his 2006 oven gathering and had numerous spacings throughout. Not he is highly respected, as were some of the peers at the gathering. Please see the link and chime in. This is very, very important to me to here the feedback.

MHA News - 2006 Meeting - Backyard Oven with Peter Moore

Robert,
Are you refering to larger mortar joints on the outside of the dome?
Am I reading this right?
( I read back through part of the thread, so now I know)
Yes...

Have you been trying to build straight sides and then a quick curve in to close the dome?

Dave

[asudavew]

Re: Acoma 42" Tuscan

This is starting to sound like cervical spinal surgery. Way too complicated for me. I'm limited to oral surgery and sloppy dome building.

I'm with you on this one Doc.

Cept for that oral surgery thing...

I do have some needle nose vise grips though.....

[asudavew]

Re: Acoma 42" Tuscan

How bought some triangle shaped brick wedges to fill the gaps?

[jcg31]

Re: Acoma 42" Tuscan

You don't want to know. Well, I know I will hear plenty but it has been my decision in order to accomplish my end goal.

Done:
C1-solder, no gap
C2-no gap, straight up
C3- .50 inches
C4- 1 1/8th inches
C5- 1 1/8th inches
C6- 1 1/8th inches
To Do:
C7- 1 1/8th inches (this would get me to 21 even)
C8- 1 1/8th inches (this would get me to 20.25)
C9- 1 inch (Goal of 20)
C10- ? (Goal of 20)
C11- ? (Goal of 20)
C12- ? (Goal of 20)
C13- ? (Goal of 20)

Now you know the gaps and goals. Lay it on me I will find out the performance, cracks, success and failures by this. I just like the larger brick look; I don't want the beveled bricks that shorten them.



From Jan 19th.
Jim, I went straight with the first 2 only. The 3rd s angled slightly, with the 4th now to have a more radical angle to get me to a 20" top.

I am doing so much free hand with arch and dome right now. I used the tool to get the perfect circle, but my use will be limited until likely the 7th course, being that I am bringing the dome in to the 20.

Robert,

In taking another look at your numbers provided, I have a question. When you speak of "this would get me to 21 inch even" in the detail you provided, where are you measuring to and from?

Also, It wasn't entirely clear to me whether the gaps mentioned in your detail were used in placing the brick or following the brick so I am relying on a quote from the 19th where you say you angled the 3rd course slightly and the photo that accompanied that quote showed three courses above floor level. So I assuming the c3 bricks were placed with a 1/2" gap between c3 and C2 and I am ignoring the course at floor level from the count (see illustration attached).

Assuming I understood your detail of the gaps used (and to be used) correctly, it would appear that when your reach course 9 you are going to be at or about 90 degrees, or perfectly vertical to the floor, and you will still have a number of courses (4 plus keystone) to go. In other words it would appear you are peaking way too early. If I am correct, that will be a major issue for you if you continue as planned. It also appears that the gaps won't get you to where you want to go. The internal height of your dome will be 15.2" (although the outside of the dome will be close to 20").

I am hoping that either you made a mistake in what you wrote or that I am mistaken in how I am interpreting it given the effort you have put in to date on this project. I understand your reluctance to tear down what has already been done, but if the drawing is correct I think it could be made right with the redo of just C6 and C5.

Ken would be a good on to check in with. He started with a very high soldier course. If you take a look at his photos, he maintained a consistent increase in angle all the way to his keystone.

Uno perhaps as well for his structural expertise.


Jim

[RCLake]

Re: Acoma 42" Tuscan

Robert
When I checked this thread this morning, I had a glitch - only item on page 28 was my posting and then it went to page 29 with the response that are still on that page. I didn't see any of the responses on page 28 so reading page 29 didn't make any sense to me.
Seeing comments this pm, I went back to page 28 and the comments were there. Since refmix and HS didn't recommend gaps over 3/8", I've kept mine at 1/4-3/8" and now that I'm done with row 7 I'm just less than 21". I put one block on the next row (to anchor the others when I start) and I'm still at the same distance and that was with a 1/2" gap.
I wasn't sure what to next and then I came across this discussion and I'll follow it closely. I thought I would taper the bottom of the next row. I think I'll get some paper and draw it out -don't know how to do that sophesticated drawings Jim has been so kind to provide. I did get google sketchpad and started using it but it kept freezing up my computer (probably Vista - Microsoft and google don't get along that well).

Think about Jim's latest sketch.

[RCLake]

Re: Acoma 42" Tuscan

Jim, it sounds like it may end up like the low vault Naples versus the higher vault Tuscan-style. Has anyone built a Naples style oven and what is there experience? Did they taper the top and bottom of the bricks to reduce the gap?

[gjbingham]

Re: Acoma 42" Tuscan

RC,
I didn't read the thread...
http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f8/f...eopolitan+oven

I'm not sure if it has what you are looking for. Sounds like Robert's is headed in that direction. A Tuscan style 42 inch oven should have a dome height around 21 inches, right? From reading your posts, it sounds like you are already there after seven rows. Yes? (No?)

[Acoma]

Re: Acoma 42" Tuscan

What I have done is a 1/2 inch lift on the back side for course 3. I went with 1 1/8 lift in back for courses 4,5,6. I am at 21.75 from center floor with measurement from top center of inside brick of course 6.

I am going to get some cardboard and shape a template based on where I am at and where I can get to with rational angle.

Should my template get me LOW like Jim mentions than I will get my grinder and taper the tops of row 6 for what ever length is needed to get me up to 20" as a goal based on Jim's concept. If my template shows that I need to mellow out on the back side seperations of bricks, I will taper accordingly to bring me down to the 20. 20 is the goal. If I go to 19 or 21 I am fine. 19 is if my angle is rapid and needs tapering, 21 is if I still need angle but can mellow the angle.

I will take photos and show the template as to what is current with goal or the realization. I will also have with that the bricks representing each course so far, and based on the template, what the seperations would be like for the remaining.

I will not tear down bricks to redo courses. If I must play doctor than I will. I believe that it will be either grinding out the 6th course to mellow out future angles, or mellowing out future angles from here forth will be the option.

Honestly, we see driveways with several tons of vehicles parked atop without cracks. Driveways with 4" cement. The Refmix is supposed to be the best and supposedly handles heat fluctuations, high and low. If that is right, I should not be concerned?

Maybe I will be the first in this forum as Michalangelo, to do the unknown? Maybe I will be the Darwin of evolution? Maybe I will be the Columbus of America (actually the native americans were through the berring straight). Point is, I believe the mortar should hold up unless Peter and James can justify that the mortar is not strong enough.

I ask that we continue this dialect and use my oven for bouncing the medical (oven) needs to make this AWESOME! We are all doctors in what we do, right? Think about it, don't we perform surgery on cracks? Confront temp fluctuations to understand the beating of our foods?

I do not expect to fail? I never have on any project, and this will not be the first.

I do want to know if cladding will support the dome, or not. This is highly important, and I would expect, or rather, appreciate, for James engineer (Peter) to speak on this as well. You can see that I am working carefully to produce a beauty that performs for many.

[jcg31]

Re: Acoma 42" Tuscan

That's the spirit Robert! (Although I would still give Peter a call).
Actually if you want to get to 20" internal ceiling height change the gap measures you had planned, to 4/10" beginning with C7 (that is the gap between C6 and C7 will be .4") and carrying on with the same .4" gap through to the keystone.

Now this is based upon measures done in the CG world, so spacing larger in the real world due to mortar, irregular bricks etc. will have to be adjusted for. Also this is based upon a 42" oven.

If you don't already have one you might consider getting a gravity based protractor. They are available right next to the tape measures in any home center, are great for maintaining the proper slope of a course (as demonstrated by many others on this forum before me) but also great when cutting brick bevels.

Jim