Dogshark58 Build

[eirebuild]

Just to give an update for any Irish Builders.
I struggles to find Calcium Silicate board aprt from in the UK.
But in the end I went with Ceramic Fibreboard from Vitcas. These guys worked out to be the best value for me.

[dogshark58]

I was interested in SableSprings's comment about placing a waterproof barrier on top of concrete then adding insulation board. I have a 6" reinforced concrete hearth and I'm about to start cutting bricks. I intent placing 50mm approx 2" of CaSi board on top of the concrete with weep holes. I intend laying the oven floor on the brick edge for additional insulation ie 4.5" will be the brick height.

Given that this build is in Ireland I am concerned about having sufficient insulation.

Questions
1. Is this sufficient insulation?
2. Should I have 2" of cement/vermiculite and place the insulation board on top of that?
3. Does anyone have photos of the tile layer suggested to go between the concrete and insulation as a water barrier. I have some unused quarry stone tiles that were originally intended to cover an external step would they be suitable?

Thanks in anticipation of much needed advice!

[dogshark58]

An update on insulation for those in Ireland. Like eirebuild, I couldn't find Ceramic Fibre board and at times when I thought I had located something useful I was unable to get information on compressive strength.

I have opted to purchase CaSi board from Potterypro, works out at about £27 delivered per 610x500x50mm sheet. Just wondering do I need some vcrete between concrete hearth and CaSi board for extra insulation.

As for firebrick, I sourced this from Ray Graham in Newtownards. The brick they stock comes from Dineen in Athy.

[dogshark58]

I was interested in SableSprings's comment about placing a waterproof barrier on top of concrete then adding insulation board. I have a 6" reinforced concrete hearth and I'm about to start cutting bricks. I intent placing 50mm approx 2" of CaSi board on top of the concrete with weep holes. I intend laying the oven floor on the brick edge for additional insulation ie 4.5" will be the brick height.

Given that this build is in Ireland I am concerned about having sufficient insulation.

Questions
1. Is this sufficient insulation?
2. Should I have 2" of cement/vermiculite and place the insulation board on top of that?
3. Does anyone have photos of the tile layer suggested to go between the concrete and insulation as a water barrier. I have some unused quarry stone tiles that were originally intended to cover an external step would they be suitable?

Thanks in anticipation of much needed advice!

[Giovanni Rossi]

Hello dogshark58, I've seen the pros on the Forum cite this build for pictures of tile between the hearth and the insulation board: https://community.fornobravo.com/for...andpoint-idaho

[SableSprings]

Dogshark58, my only concern is if the quarry tiles will wick water as does concrete. The reason I like to see ceramic/mosaic tiles used is that they are impervious to water transfer. If you put a quarry tile in a bucket of water for an hour...does it absorb water (gain weight)? If it does, then it would not be suitable to create the waterproofing layer on top of the concrete hearth.

[david s]

I use an additive in the concrete mix which makes it waterproof when I cast the supporting slab. Another alternative is to coat the top of the slab with a sealer. These treatments should prevent or at least reduce moisture wicking up from the stand, but will not prevent refractory material from absorbing moisture from the air in periods of very high humidity. In that case neither will a roof. We live in the tropics and during the wet season I’ve experienced times when the oven has picked up moisture from very high humidity even though it hasn’t actually rained. Knowing how wet Ireland is, you may have similar problems with high humidity. A long gentle fire or two does the trick of restoring normal function.

Also make sure no sprinklers wet the stand on a regular basis, this has proved to be a problem with water wicking up the stand.

[dogshark58]

Thanks for that. I was considering using 6" square quarry tiles with a gap between them. My weep holes would be in the gaps between the tiles.

[wolfmoonex]

A popular insulation stack is Cal sil > inverted bathroom tiles to drain moisture > foam glass > perlcreate

[dogshark58]

I am currently busy cutting bricks and up to the 7th course of by 42” build. Having exhausted my initial purchase of fire brick, I’m calculating what I need to complete including the external arch, entrance and chimney.

I have seen some discussion on leaving an expansion gap between the entrance / external arch and the main oven.

1. should this simply be a gap with the external insulation fibre and vcrete hiding it?
2. Are there other methods to install insulation between the dome and entrance to leave an expansion gap

As always any wisdom is appreciated.

[JRPizza]

Some folks have cut L shaped bricks for the rear vent arch so that there is both an horizontal and vertical air gap between the dome arch and the vent. The horizontal gap makes a handy place to place a bit of insulation/rope without having to fight gravity to keep it in place. You can check out my build to see an example.
https://community.fornobravo.com/for...326#post421326
https://community.fornobravo.com/for...372#post386372

[mongota]

My "L" cut method was the same as JR described.

The rope I used was 1/2" ceramic fiber rope, I used two pieces of rope, one stuck to the face and the other stuck to the side of the arch bricks. A thin bead of high temp silicon was my "glue".

Because the rope was a bit thick (1/2") I also notched out a groove in the "L" of the bricks so the bricks could nest a bit closer together. I notched one brick, made a template, and used that to make my cut lines on the other bricks. Very easy to do with a diamond blade on the angle grinder.

https://community.fornobravo.com/for...567#post393567

Enjoy your build!
Best, Mongo

[dogshark58]

I have spent the summer cutting my stock of fire brick and I am now turning my attention to placing my oven floor on the hearth.


Having had previous useful comments and suggestions I have considered my next steps and have settled of the the following - all comments and suggestions welcome

1. I intend placing a layer of glazed cheap ceramic tiles covering the footprint of my oven floor. These will have a drainage gap between them and weep holes through to the wood store below.
2. I intend placing 100mm (approx 4”) of Ceramic fibre board on top of the ceramic tiles. The weep holes to match those below.

My first question is in relation to the footprint of the ceramic tiles / insulation on which the oven floor will sit. Should this be...

1. Trimmed to the size of the exterior walls of the dome?
2. Extended to cover an area beyond the width of the exterior walls of the dome plus the width of dome insulation and final rendering

What would the best practice be to enable the dome / floor to expand At this time I plan to go with option b leaving 2-3” of the extended oven floor beyond the finished rendering.

I intend placing fire brick in herring bone pattern but placed on their edge which will give a fire brick height of 4.5” for the oven floor on top of the 100mm ceramic fibre board. Although using more fire brick my thinking is that this will provide further insulation and this build is in Ireland.

Final question, I haven’t decided but I will either tile the remaining hearth or lay polished granite to butt against the protruding oven floor. I would see the granite being about 1-2” below the level of the oven floor. Do I need to leave a gap for floor expansion against the granite?

Any comments of approval or suggested improvements are welcome.

[mongota]

I may be reading this incorrectly, but you don't need drainage holes in your 4" thickness of under-floor board insulation. Your under-floor insulation should be continuous in my opinion. No drainage holes in the insulation itself, and with any insulation board seams offset from one layer to another if indeed you are doing multiple layers of board insulation to get the 4" total thickness. If one of the pro's has another idea on that, I'd be happy hear what they have to say.

I'd venture that the drainage tiles should have the same footprint as your insulation footprint. While I did not use tiles under the insulation, my understanding is that the goal is to isolate any and all insulation from the slab to prevent slab moisture from wicking up in to the insulation. And to allow any moisture that does get in to the insulation a drainage gap between the insulation and the slab.

With my dome, I extended the board insulation out past the footprint of the brick dome. I felt that was a good choice for two reasons:
1) The dome bricks were not right on the edge of the 4" thickness of insulation. I felt that would minimize the possibility of the weight of the dome bricks compressing the 4" thickness of board insulation right at the edge of the board.
2) When I insulated my dome, the first 1" thickness of blanket insulation landed on top of the floor board insulation. The following three layers of 1" blanket insulation covered the sides of the floor insulation, extending down to the slab. With the first layer landing on top and the following layers extending all the way to the slab, the seam between the blanket and board was not a linear path.

I'll try to add a couple of photos. They help more than words.

Best, Mongo

[Giovanni Rossi]

dogshark58, Read through Mongo's build. The answer is there and the overall value is worth every minute it will take you to review. Giovanni

[mongota]

Mongo

Also if I understand correctly the width of insulation around the dome enables the oven to expand and contract without cracking the external render.

Could I ask what the red material is around the edges on your photo, is this a waterproof compound?

1) Correct. My dome for example sits on top of 4" of board insulation. The completed brick dome was then covered with 4" of blanket insulation, and the blanket insulation was covered with expanded lathe and a hard render shell. I can fire my oven and because the 4 inch thickness of cushy blanket insulation isolates the brick dome from the hard render shell, the brick dome can move as needed and not stress the hard shell.

2) The red stuff is RedGard. A liquid waterproofing membrane. I put it on my slab to prevent moisture in my slab from wicking up in to my board and blanket insulation. I had it on hand, so I used it. RedGard is NOT vapor permeable, so I would NOT use it over the render shell that covers the insulated dome. I DID waterproof my render shell but with Thoroseal. Thoroseal is a cement-based waterproofing that is waterproof (liquid waterproof) but it is also water vapor permeable. Water vapor can pass through it, but not liquid water.

In an idle oven, one sitting over a wet winter for example, the oven structure may absorb moisture simply due to latent moisture in the atmosphere. When I fire my oven after a period of non-use, the fire will try to drive that moisture out of the oven. While the moisture can NOT pass through the RedGard (vapor impermeable) it CAN pass through the Thoroseal (vapor permeable) and then in to free air. I also have a vent at the apex of my dome. Moisture vapor driven out of the dome structure by the heat from a fire does exit the oven structure through that vent as well.

Try to keep water out with proper detailing of your build. But plan on it getting in, thus provide an appropriate escape path. Just in case!

[dogshark58]

Mongo

Thanks for your prompt reply.

I understand about no holes in the insulation, I expect this is because most moisture finds its way from outside the dome. Given the size of Ceramic board I will be using it will be two layers and I understand about staggering the seams,

Regarding the footprint of the insulation / oven floor, I too am concerned about building the dome sitting right on the edge of the insulation. If I extend the insulation and oven brick floor I can square the edges of the floor more easily.

Also if I understand correctly the width of insulation around the dome enables the oven to expand and contract without cracking the external render.

Could I ask what the red material is around the edges on your photo, is this a waterproof compound?

[dogshark58]

Thanks Giovanni, will do

[dogshark58]

I am still at the planning stage though I have about 50% of my bricks cut before our Irish wet season started.

I intend covering my hearth with polished granite as an impervious layer on which my underfloor insulation will sit. As the granite comes in 1m square tiles I’ll place weep holes to permit drainage.

I would like some advice regarding insulation under the oven floor. From various pictures I see two options.

1. The insulation it trimmed to match the shape and size of the oven ie circular.
2. The insulation and oven floor are rectangular and much wider than the finished dimensions of the oven.

Option 1 uses less insulation, my preference since insulation here is difficult to get and expensive. However, this involves more floor brick cutting to match the shape. I assume any oven or oven floor expansion compresses the insulation blanket around the inner oven wall.

Option 2, If I use this method do I need to have something around the outer layer of floor bricks to keep the oven floor from moving. Would cementing the outer row of bricks to the granite keep it stable or would this inhibit floor expansion. Do I need to allow for floor expansion?

Any suggestions as always welcome.

[Pizzarotic]

It would be impossible to cement bricks to and underlying layer of smooth granite..

OP said the insulation was going on top the granite.

[MarkJerling]

OP said the insulation was going on top the granite.

I was responding to this question by the OP:

Option 2.....Would cementing the outer row of bricks to the granite keep it stable or would this inhibit floor expansion....

Bricks can't be cemented to smooth granite. Heat proof silicone, maybe, but cement would not work.

[Kvanbael]

The one-piece granite slab of our oven had the dome cut out. My brother-in-law got a nice round table out of it. Resting the entire oven on top of the granite is possible, I suppose, but seems a bit silly.

[dogshark58]

I plan to have about 25mm (approx 1") of oven floor beyond the outside of the 1st course of dome bricks. Is this sufficient?

Also, should the insulation extend a little beyond the oven floor. I assume the weight of the floor bricks, dome insulation and outer shell keeps the floor bricks in place.

Finally, at the front of the landing is it normal to have a border of bricks cemented to the foundation to cover the exposed insulation / floor bricks?

[Kvanbael]

Should the brick floor extend beyond the dome? No, preferably the floor is trimmed to align with the outside of the first course. If the floor would stick out, then those parts would need to be insulated too, and that would be less practical.
Should the floor insulation extend beyond the dome? Many builders extend the floor insulation so that the dome insulation (the blanket) can rest on it. The other way around also works, but is a bit less practical.

Finishing the front of the landing: There's many options, I'll leave others with more experience to answer that. But you should definitely do *something* to cover exposed insulation.

[UtahBeehiver]

IMHO, the floor bricks could be what us yanks call "proud" or extending beyond the edge of the dome especially if the oven is in an enclosure and the type of insulation you are doing. By having the floor bricks proud, the dome can sit on the floor bricks and you do not need to have the edges nearly as precise as the floor inside the dome. That said, I would not have the floor bricks extend past the floor insulation. So it depends on a lot of factors which way is best.

[dogshark58]

Thanks for the responses guys.

I had assumed to extend the floor proud of the dome bricks to allow for expansion and also not to leave small unstable brick cuts.

I take the point regarding not extending over the insulation. I had intended to have the insulation extend a fraction to accommodate brick expansion.


Finally, at the front of the landing is it normal to have a border of bricks cemented to the foundation to cover the exposed insulation / floor bricks?

[dogshark58]

I have just cut my ceramic fibre board to size, it may have excellent insulation but I’m not impressed with the lose debris on the edges. I had read that painting Red Guard under the insulation is advisable especially in a wet climate like Ireland. Would painting the edges of the fibre board help in sealing the loose debris on the fibre board edges?

[dogshark58]

Having cut my insulation, I’m about to position it on the hearth. I will install weep holes and use mosaic tiles to support the insulation.

I plan to have a heat break between inner and outer arch. I have read about having a good width for a smoke collection area leading to the chimney. This will be a factor in determining the length of the landing.

I had planned to have a landing length of brick and a half ie about 13.5” from the joint of the inner/outer arch.

1. Does this sound ok.
2. Also would the length of a brick be sufficient to act as a smoke collection area leading to chimney?

The landing length will determine the positioning of the insulation on the hearth to commence the build and weep hole locations.