Cold fermintation

[farmboy236]

Peter,
In all your books you are a proponent of a long cold fermentation but from Chris Bianco to NYC and New Haven none of the "Great Houses" use a long cold fermentation. They seem to use a room temp short fermentation. Would you please expand on this dichotomy?

[hodgey1]

Re: Cold fermintation

Peter's recipe in the Bread Baker Apprentice not only calls for slow fermentation but also starting with chilled ingredients. My recipe and technique are very similar to his, particularly the Slow ferment and my results have been excellent . I do not start with chilled ingredients thou I want to try it some time.

The dough become so supple and easy to work with and the flavor is greatly improved. The only way I've been able to achieve those things is with the slow ferment. I find the side benefit of chilling the dough is being able to make it days in advance of the party which relieves some of the party stress.

I will be extremely interested to read the replies "if any" on this topic and wish there was more dough discussion. I'm actual surprised at the lack of pizza dough discussion that takes place here. I know there's other sites dedicated to just pizza but my thoughts are with such a large population of forum members with the worlds best pizza baking apparatus in the world "a WFO" that dough discussion would be number 1.

I know my WFO is good for so much more but I built mine because after years perfecting my pie I wanted more than the 550* my oven offered. Like the builders Brain Trust here, I think the baking side of things needs the same support from the community. Who knows, it seems this forum is currently the world foremost site for building, maybe it could become the same for baking?

Just my Opinion.

[GianniFocaccia]

Re: Cold fermintation

Farmboy,

Regarding dough formulation and properties, the collective knowledge and experience available from the contributors of Pizzamaking.com far surpasses that of Forno Bravo, as this is a newbie builders site. Conversely, there is a section on home ovens at Pizzamaking.com that can't come close to the expertise offered up here when it comes to oven design, materials, or processes.

I'm not sure Peter Reinhart ever planned to contribute anything to this site other than his name, as he warns in his one introductory post back in 2010.

Give Pizzamaking.com a look. It is supported by experienced, knowledgeable and organized pizzaioli and pizzeria owners who are generous with their time and certainly not motivated to profit from it.

[hodgey1]

Re: Cold fermintation

Gianni,

Do you have a particular recipe including technique from that site you would recommend? Or possibly what you use for dough?

Thanks,

[TropicalCoasting]

Re: Cold fermintation

I ferment the dough in the fridge as room temperature in the sub tropics is usually into the mid to high 20c most of the year.
I find I get best results if I let it start rising before I put it in
So usually an hour at room temp and then 24hrs in the fridge
Then an hour at room temp to rise again

[farmboy236]

Re: Cold fermintation

Yes, pizzamaking.com site is great; I am a member there. Really my question was to Peter regarding the seeming dichotomy of his championing a cold fermentation while showcasing the "Best Pizza In The World" the majority of whose makers use a short room temp fermentation. At home I use cold fermentation but if the best don't then I am wondering what I am missing.

[hodgey1]

Re: Cold fermintation

I'm not sure Peter Reinhart ever planned to contribute anything to this site other than his name, as he warns in his one introductory post back in 2010.

Yes, pizzamaking.com site is great; I am a member there. Really my question was to Peter regarding the seeming dichotomy

I'm guessing from what Gianni posted earlier that Peter has been among the missing here for quit some time. Once this questions of dough technique of Peters was opened I revisited his book that I own "BBA" and read his recommendation of starting with chilled "40*F" water and flour with a final kneaded dough temp of I think of 55*F. It made me think about my dough temp which is normally in the 80* F temp prior to putting in the refrigerator for a few days.

So, then I logged into his pizza quest site and read where he was recommending not to chill the water or flour. The quote below is from his blog dated 12/30/2010

Peters Quote "As for why not to use ice cold water, I found that if the water is too cold the dough doesn't get enough fermentation in the fridge, and I decided that I like that early fermentation flavor".

[sclancy]

Re: Cold fermintation

I use the "no-knead" partial cold fermentation technique for 2 reasons - less risk of over/under kneading the dough and quickness/ease. I basically use the FB recipe modified by Tscar (no-knead) - a single 1hr rise on the counter followed by portioning/balling and then at least a 24 hr rise that also builds gluten. the dough is perfect every time from 24-48hrs. After 2 days it falls on itself (looks like a pancake) and gets pretty wet and slack to work with but taste does not change and if you are careful you can still get some nice pizzas out of it. It also freezes quite well.

[JAG]

Re: Cold fermintation

Farmboy, I don't think you should worry to much about what the "great houses" use, it should be more of a personal preference. I use a 3-5 day cold ferment that gives me a flavor profile that I really like. It gives all my ingredients a chance to slowly mature and it seems to really add IMO a "rustic" taste that I like. I really don't believe there is a right or wrong, just what you like. This would be a good excuse to run an experiment a.k.a. (party) that would involve friends and family as long as they will give you an honest opinion. Do some same day and do some 3-5 day cold rise. Another thought is that maybe the big names do a same day room temp because of the logistics of operating their restaurant. Just throwing some stuff out there.

[Tscarborough]

Re: Cold fermintation

Most restaurants do not have the space to cold ferment, or the time. They need to make dough to use the same day or the next, so there really is no direct comparison between making hundreds of doughballs in a commercial setting, and 4 or 12 for home use.

Every recipe I have seen from the great pizzaiolos is not the same one they use at work, it is adapted for the home environment.

[farmboy236]

Re: Cold fermintation

I am not trying to debate the merits of either method ( I use Long cold fermentation at home). I saw a dichotomy, after reading Peter's books, and wanted to solve it for my understanding and to expand my pizza horizons.

[Tscarborough]

Re: Cold fermintation

I just explained the dichotomy. Cold fermentation is not practical for most restaurant settings, but is very practical in home settings.

Personally, I do cold ferment for the ability to have a large window of use (2 days out to a week or more).

[GianniFocaccia]

Re: Cold fermintation

Farmboy, I don't think you should worry to much about what the "great houses" use, it should be more of a personal preference

I agree. "Great" and "world-famous" are over-used, and as my grandfather once told me, its usually the newbies that refer to something as 'great' while the experienced veterans tell it like it really is.

The cool part is that you get to experiment to find out what you like. Presumably, your preferences will evolve as your understanding of processes and materials do. Sometimes you get to make what's popular with your family and friends, instead of what you like.

Do you have a particular recipe including technique from that site you would recommend? Or possibly what you use for dough?

There are so many pizza recipes, here is what I did: I made a spreadsheet that allows me to track every facet of every pizza I've ever made. This way, I can evaluate each pie and tweak each recipe accordingly. So far, changes have been hit or miss, but mostly positive.

When I first started, I didn't know enough about my oven to make a decent Neapolitan pie, so I switched from Caputo 00 to King Arthur AP flour and making New York style pies, which the family likes much better. My camera broke, but below are some pics of early attempts.

Hopefully, I'm nowhere near where I'm gonna be in a year or so, but the pizzas I've made lately have turned out nicely. We had 25 or so of my daughter's college swim teammates over for a party a few weeks ago and every pie got devoured.

Here's what I track on my spreadsheet:

Date
Recipe
# of Pizzas
Flour
Yeast %
Hydration %
Salt%
Autolyse
# of S& F's
Interval
Bulk Rise
Temp
Final Rise
Dome temp
Floor Temp
Notes

Most of the variables revolve around the recipe (percentages of oil, sugar, yeast) and fermentation temps and times. I followed a recommendation of fermenting at 60F in my cooler, and the dough blew all over the place. (too much yeast for the process). What I do know is that dough allowed to ferment in the fridge for 3 days is the standard for best flavor.

Tscar (who makes top-notch-looking pies BTW) nailed it. Its a rare pizzaria that has enough walk-in space to cold-ferment dough for 3-days, so for them, room-temp fermentation is generally the rule. This is where a home pizzaiolo with a spare fridge and a WFO really rocks.

John

[Tscarborough]

Re: Cold fermintation

My pies are kind of ugly, but they taste pretty damn good.

Room temp rise (fermenting may be technically correct, but is misleading for the GP) is the preferred method, provided you are making a sourdough,have the ability to keep your doughs at 68-70 degrees, and have a pretty specific time frame for the use of the dough. The best doughs I have ever tasted are all done with this workflow. 2 are commercial, Pieous and Bufalina in Austin, and by a fair margin the best, TXCraig's garage in Houston.

So aside from the reason why pizza professionals use room temp dough at work and why they advise cold rise for home pizza (the dichotomy), You should use whichever method best fits your workflow and needs. There is no "best" there is only what works for you.

[sclancy]

Re: Cold fermintation

So my 1-2 day cold rise works perfectly. Days 3-4 the dough gets wet and falls. On days 3-4, When it warms and I stretch it, it is very very slack. 1-2 day old dough is perfect. Just the right spring but still able to be stretched thin. Doesn't gluten continue to build days 3-4? What am I missing?

Tscar: How do I modify the " no knead" recipe to use dough same day?? Can I just knead for another 10mins before balling and doing a second room temp rise??