not quite right...

[azpizzanut]

Re: not quite right...

Tman1,

If your dough was too wet with AP flour then don't add less water with unbleached bread flour. You would be changing two variables then, one the flour and the other the amount of water. I think you will do ok if you weigh the ingredients and follow the recipe exactly. I'm going to make half batches until I get consistent results.

It was nice you got to meet the author. If you make the pizza dough he might be impressed, if he isn't, then he can give you some tips. I think you will have the problems ironed out by then though.

Cheers,

[Tman1]

Re: not quite right...

I was thinking we would both make pizza dough and compare. It really boils down to personal taste.

I agree, only change one variable at a time. Hmmmm, gonna be a bunch of bread.

[texassourdough]

Re: not quite right...

In an earlier post you indicate the dough had been retarded a week. That is BAD! The enzymes keep chewing up the starch and you start seriously losing dough quality around day three. The consensus for peak flavor seems to be day one or two and for bread quality, day one. Refrigerator temp is a factor but... the enzymes are less affected by temp than the bacteria and yeast. Sourdough starters go from having a level of stiffness to being liquid over time. Your bread is overretarded and almost certainly overproofed as well.

Bake sooner - one to two days after forming the dough and you will almost certainly solve some of your problem.

Good Luck!
Jay

[azpizzanut]

Re: not quite right...

Tman1,

Ah, success. I made two batches of the no-knead un-bleached flour, white bread, today and put them the fridge for later. We used up the last of the first batch for pizza tonight in our wood fired oven, our first wfo pizza by the way! It turned out very good. This was from the dough I thought was a little on the dry side with small crumb. It was fine for pizza though.

As I was making the bread dough today I was explaining to my wife about the qualities of high protein bread flour vs AP and she mentioned that it was all-purpose flour in the container. DOH!! That explains why the first batch of dough wasn't what I expected. I had made a whole batch of dough with AP instead of bread flour. It was good but not the great bread described in the book. The second batch made with high protein bread flour turned out much better and handled differently than the first.

Not only did we make a great loaf of bread after the pizza (with the latest batch of no-knead bread dough) but I made a loaf (with the AP) that had Asiago cheese in it. WOW! What flavor. The wood fired oven cooked the bread to perfection. Our first try.

Here's how we did it. I felt the oven was the correct temperature after cooking and eating the pizza. 20 min. I sprayed about 20 squirts of water into the oven and placed the loaf in the middle. After 7 minutes I checked the bread and turned it 180 deg and sprayed about 10 squirts of water. I closed the door and waited another 22 minutes. The bread was nicely done and with a golden crust. It has a hard crusty shell, just what we like. This dough was a little wetter than with the AP flour and softer too. It slumped a little on the peel while resting but not much. It did raise higher than the AP loaves though. We'll have it toasted for breakfast. Wow, what a great afternoon of cooking and baking. My wife is a good helper and supporter.

Cheers,

[Tman1]

Re: not quite right...

Hi Tman1,

A couple of questions. Are you making sour dough, with your old starter? I've only made three loaves of bread in my life and only in the last couple of weeks, but they have been wonderful. I purchased the book,"Tartine Bread", and it states that you should feed your starter, before making your next loaf, and use the young sweet starter as your leven. After mixing your dough, give it an 8 to 12 hour, fermentation rest at room temp of slightly above, folding it once every 30minutes for the first two hours. They also recommend cooking in a stream saturated oven. Last night I added chopped Black Olive, Italian Herbs, Lemon zest and Rosemary Olive oil to my Whole Wheat Sour Dough mix. I'll let you know how it turns out. By the way if you bake with you home oven, try using a cast iron dutch oven(preheated for 20 minute at 500f or 260c, place the bread in the lid and the pot upside down and cook the first twenty minutes(230c) before removing it. This will create steam, cook for an addition 20 minutes uncovered.

Laurentius

Sorry, I didn't see this earlier. I just got a notification moments ago. Wierd.

Sounds great! I don't have a cast iron dutch oven, and don't forsee the purchase in the near future. The light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off until further notice for new purchases. Now, if I can get one at a garage sale cheap....

[azpizzanut]

Re: not quite right...

Tman1,

An upturned dutch oven seems a bit awkward to handle in a hot oven but I did see the reference Laurentius mentioned in a book recently.

The method I use to add steam in our kitchen oven is to put one cup of hot water in an oven-safe metal pan on a rack below the bread. It steams just enough to develop a nice crust.

For adding steam to the wood fired oven I simply squirt about 20 misty sprays into the center of the oven from a Home Depot hand sprayer then place the bread on the hearth without delay. Five minutes later I spray a few more times. You only need steam for the first part of the bake.

Best of luck,

[Tman1]

Re: not quite right...

I've been pouring water into the broiler pan when I cook in the house oven. I've read that misting technique before... we need it to stop snowing here so I can officially try bread in the oven.

[Tman1]

Re: not quite right...

Could the flour make that much difference in cook time? I tried the last loaf of the bleached flour dough last night, and it was in the oven at 450* for 45 minutes, and still did not reach 205 internal temp. At this length of cooking time, the crust starts to have a burned taste.

[Tman1]

Re: not quite right...

Oh, and the temp in the oven is accurate. I bought a thermometer to check because that seemed the most likely.

[texassourdough]

Re: not quite right...

Hi TM!

Have you verified the accuracy of your thermometer. Since you are at low elevation boiling water makes a good reference. Should be 211 or 212 (but it needs to be boiling - not just simmering!)

I am assuming you are not making a supersize loaf. A loaf in the 1 1/4 to 2 pound range should be well above 205 in a 450 oven in 45 minutes. High hydration could be a contributor but...even then it should be hotter.

Tell us more about your baking. I take it you aren't using a cloche or dome.

Merry Christmas
Jay

[azpizzanut]

Re: not quite right...

Hello Tman1,

I baked yesterday and experienced the same thing. Internal temp was 190 deg but the outside appeared done perfectly. I'm calibrating my digital probe as I write this and so far it looks like it is right on. I did find the oven dial is 15 deg cooler than indicated, not a problem that should affect things in a big way, but very easy to accommodate by placing the dial a little past the temperature recommended in a recipe.

My bread is turning out pretty good and it might be foolish to argue with success by making major changes. Looking at the issue you describe it appears the recommended time and oven temperature is not producing the recommended internal temperature of the "finished" loaf. Things that could affect this are the size of the loaf, hydration and cooking environment. I suggest adjusting the hydration of your next dough by reducing it a little and try again. Use a digital scale to weigh the water and record this recipe as a baseline for future batches. If lower hydration does not provide the internal temperature you're looking for then adjust the size of the loaf, then the amount of water added for steam, etc. Somewhere along the process you should hit upon success. Then, strive for consistency. I'm using the no-knead master recipe in the "Artisan Bread in Five Minutes a Day" book. As a reminder, the recipe was developed for unbleached AP flour not unbleached bread flour.

Best of luck,

[texassourdough]

Re: not quite right...

Put up some pictures. What to you may be burned may be underdone to me. And that is part of personal preference - there is nothing right/wrong except the taste/look you want.

I push my artisanal breads HARD in the oven. I am baking my boules to 210/211. The crust can be quite dark. But my hydration is high - 70 to 75% - so the crumb is still really moist. And my temperature checked oven does fine in about 43 minutes in the 450 range. So....need to know more about what you are getting and how you are getting it (the process) before I can add much... oh, and what you want...
Jay

[Tman1]

Re: not quite right...

I swear the first boule I did baked in 25 minutes, and tasted good. This last loaf was very dense in the middle, and the temp probe had some dough stuck to it even when I finally took it out of the oven. I don't mind the hard crust, but it did taste burned, and that I don't like. I can't peak to crumb since, well, I don't know how to describe that. I want a good tasting fresh bread. I don't think I want to spend the time to become an incredible baker, just be able to make some good tasting loaves (and impress the guests).

Again, I've been using the ABIF recipe, but haven't figured out the exact hydration, and I didn't weigh it, and I used the wrong flour! I don't know if it's even worth learning anything from it. This next batch used KA AP flour which I will probably try this evening. I might even throw caution into the wind and give ciabatta a try using Jason's recipe from TFL.

[texassourdough]

Re: not quite right...

Hi TM! Sounds badly underproofed. If you are an intermittent baker your kitchen is probably much colder now than before and you didn't get a good proof (or perhaps your yeast is tired). Most bakers find they have to change their practices a bit between summer and winter. Time is not a reliable measure.

This will sound trite but...it isn't. If the dough feels heavy and has the consistency of playdough it's not ready to bake. There is a good chance you will need to lengthen your rise time or proof at a higher temp. An oven with the light on is usually a pretty good place.

Making really great bread is not for the casual IMO but everyone should be able to make good bread with a bit of practice and familiarity.

Jason's ciabatta is pretty foolproof - but make sure it is puffy!

Hang in there!
Jay

[lwood]

Re: not quite right...

Jay, I just got the most beautiful baguettes I have ever seen just come out of my oven, thanks to your advice. The lower hydration for workability and new yeast made all the difference. The proofing was important, learned that I shouldn't expect much oven spring with bread. It should look almost like a fully developed loaf before it goes in the oven. I also learned why you don't leave the coals in your oven while baking bread.