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**texassourdough** · 02-11-2011, 06:18 AM

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Hi Eric!

Great sourdough is hard enough to do in a conventional oven. Trying to make great sourdough "casually"/occasionally in a WFO is a recipe for trouble as your experiences suggest. Three key problems:
1) having the bread at proper proofing level when going into the oven
2) having the oven properly loaded and at proper temp when the bread goes in
3) having enough humidity (steam) to give a proper crust (which in my experience requires about 15 pounds of dough in a 1 meter oven so you could figure 18). There are "workarounds" for not having enough dough but the results are IMO reliably inferior.

First issue: Proofing. You need enough experience that you can reliably have the bread ready to bake at a predictable time. This takes experience, practice, and anal dedication to details like starter and levain activity and temperature control.

Second issue: Oven Temp. You need to fire the oven until it is well loaded. At least an hour and a half and preferably 2 hours or more in my experience. Clearing is not enough for the outer refractory will still be pulling heat from the oven chamber. Then clear the oven and close it up and let it heat soak (temperature equalize). Then clean it good and mop it out at about 600 F and get the temp to the desired point - for YOUR oven and YOUR loading. I load my oven at about 560 on the hearth. I spray a little water before and after loading but I rely on the bread for most of my steam. Close the door for at least 45 minutes (in my case) before checking the bread but that is a function of loaf size and other things.

Third point: Make big batches or expect mediocre crust OR put a cloche lid or metal bowl over each loaf.

There are a variety of confusing and contradictory elements in your description of the results/baking conditions.

Your say the bottom of one loaf was burned. That would normally be too hot ahearth but you say "oven temp was 400 to 550 (I assume F). As a result I am forced to suspect the char was burned cheese.

You say the bread hadn't risen. Then it wasn't ready to bake! Period! However, it is also worth noting that cheese contains protease which breaks down gluten and diminishes bread's ability to rise. Using milk products in sourdoughs invites problems and you need to be able to make it indoors before you do it outdoors. Experimenting with recipes needs to be done indoors and with no schedule. Back to point one. You have to be able to have the bread at its peak at a predictable time.

Your second loaf seems to suggest the oven temp was not too hot but that proofing was an issue. However, your reference to temps from 400 to 550 gives me no confidence in your oven temp. While bread can be reasonably baked at hearth temps down to 450 or so, sourdough in my experience really wants higher temps. I have no idea what temp would be best for your cheese loaf. But you also need to insulate your oven before you put any serious effort into bread. It needs to hold temp and not leak the heat outside!

Welcome to the WFOs Make Sourdough Bakers Humble Club. It is quite simply not easy to make great sourdough in a WFO! It takes attention to detail and a lot of practice to get reliable results.

Good Luck!
Jay

**Tman1** · 02-11-2011, 08:01 AM

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Ya know, you might not like what he has to say, but you gotta love that Jay takes the time to explain (very) thoroughly his points. Thanks Jay!

**texassourdough** · 02-11-2011, 09:02 AM

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

My pleasure TMan!

Pizza is so easy (compared to bread) that I think it is really easy for people to get suckered in and underestimate the challenges of bread and to try to make bread casually, and that isn't likely to be very successful in a WFO, especially with sourdough. My response is "tough love" direct because there is no reliable trick or shortcut. Sourdough is tricky. Baking (great bread) in a WFO is tricky. The combination is seriously challenging.

Much better IMO to learn sourdough indoors and to bake commercially yeasted breads in the WFO until you have both of them reasonably predictable. Then one can begin the self-humiliation of learning SD in the WFO with at least some chance of success!

Ohhh....and one last thought for Eric!

Your loaves were also underbaked as evidenced by the raw dough in the center. It can be really challenging to bake severly underproofed dough long enough - but it doesn't matter for it will be terrible (brick) if you do manage to bake it long enough anyway.

If the dough is not light and bouncy the loaf won't be either. Cold clammy stiff dough is not ready to bake (unless you are one of the people who bake straight from the fridge and that is a whole different can of worms). It will almost certainly be heavy and dense, and the flavor will usually be mediocre.

Two tools that are IMO critical for WFO bread baking are a IR thermometer so you KNOW the hearth temp and a good, temperature probe thermometer to check the internal temperature of the loaves for the less reliable/consistent your hearth temp the more variable your bake times will be and recipe times are pretty meaningless in many cases.

It's no fun to be a curmudgeon and rain on people's parades, but Eric's post highlights the disappointment that comes all too easily from baking sourdough in a WFO. The details are important!

Thanks TMan!
Jay

**splatgirl** · 02-11-2011, 07:47 PM

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

We love us some Jay

Been there, done that. I had the added bonus of trying to establish my sourdough culture from scratch, in addition to learning the whole sourdough deal and the ins and outs of WFO bread baking.
Just learning to manage and read a sourdough starter is an undertaking, nevermind getting it to do what you want, when you want.

I agree most emphatically with Jay that it is much, much easier to learn in the indoor oven and then move on to WFO. And if you're a rank beginner with artisan breads, get good at yeasted doughs first. Bread has a bajillion variables that you need to get right to have it come out great. Sourdough has double that many.

With regard to baking bread in the WFO, I've found that a "standard" 1.5 or 2 hour firing, just up to full temp white dome, and then cool down doesn't produce as nice a loaf as when I've kept an active fire and held pizza temp for few hours--or several--I haven't found the lower limit, but I know that 2 hours is too short. I almost always end up with overdone bottom crusts with a short heat cycle, whereas if I'm baking bread after a pizza party or other longer firing, they come out perfect.

Be patient, keep trying, and be as systematic about it as you can be at first. Bread baking is the kind of hobby that always offers you opportunities for learning and improving. That's what keeps it interesting!

**EricU** · 02-11-2011, 07:56 PM

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Jay,

First of all, let me say "Thanks" for the reply and do not even begin to think that you are going to hurt my feelings. Remember I am the first one to say my SD bread has so far been a Fail! The reason that I posted was to try to figure out what I did wrong.

Originally posted by texassourdough View Post

Hi Eric!...
3) having enough humidity (steam) to give a proper crust (which in my experience requires about 15 pounds of dough in a 1 meter oven so you could figure 18). There are "workarounds" for not having enough dough but the results are IMO reliably inferior.

I need to cook 15 lbs of dough at a time to get good SD crusts! WOW!

First issue: Proofing. You need enough experience that you can reliably have the bread ready to bake at a predictable time. This takes experience, practice, and anal dedication to details like starter and levain activity and temperature control.

We are having a difficult time with the recommended proofing Temps mostly, I think it is 70 to 75 degree (F) range which sounds easy but our house is not in that temp range usually. It changes during the day and night as it is a big open plan house. Any suggestions or tips?

Second issue: Oven Temp. You need to fire the oven until it is well loaded. At least an hour and a half and preferably 2 hours or more in my experience. Clearing is not enough for the outer refractory will still be pulling heat from the oven chamber. Then clear the oven and close it up and let it heat soak (temperature equalize). Then clean it good and mop it out at about 600 F and get the temp to the desired point - for YOUR oven and YOUR loading. I load my oven at about 560 on the hearth. I spray a little water before and after loading but I rely on the bread for most of my steam. Close the door for at least 45 minutes (in my case) before checking the bread but that is a function of loaf size and other things.

My oven is not completely insulated yet as I am not done with the upper enclosure, but it does have about a two inch thick layer of vermiculite concrete with a layer of stucco over that to keep it working during the winter until I get back interested in it enough to start the construction again.

My oven temps vary depending on where I take the reading, the dome gets the hottest and the floor the coolest except where the fire was/is. Where should I be taking the readings? With Pizza it seems to be the upper area of the dome's interior. And I am using an infrared gun to read the temps.

There are a variety of confusing and contradictory elements in your description of the results/baking conditions.

Your say the bottom of one loaf was burned. That would normally be too hot ahearth but you say "oven temp was 400 to 550 (I assume F). As a result I am forced to suspect the char was burned cheese.

No cheese in this recipe or in the oven at the time, but the bottom of that loaf was definitely charred. And yes my readings are in Fahrenheit.

The cheese was in our very first attempt (my wife's idea) which turned out perfect. It was a different recipe on a different day that used dry yeast, not sourdough.

What is strange to me is that on one hand it sounds like the oven hearth was not hot enough, definitely under 600 F before the swab down, but it also seems like it was too hot as that first loaf (of the second attempt) charred the bottom.

You say the bread hadn't risen. Then it wasn't ready to bake! Period! However, it is also worth noting that cheese contains protease which breaks down gluten and diminishes bread's ability to rise. Using milk products in sourdoughs invites problems and you need to be able to make it indoors before you do it outdoors. Experimenting with recipes needs to be done indoors and with no schedule. Back to point one. You have to be able to have the bread at its peak at a predictable time.

That I believe and we need practice.

Your second loaf seems to suggest the oven temp was not too hot but that proofing was an issue. However, your reference to temps from 400 to 550 gives me no confidence in your oven temp. While bread can be reasonably baked at hearth temps down to 450 or so, sourdough in my experience really wants higher temps. I have no idea what temp would be best for your cheese loaf. But you also need to insulate your oven before you put any serious effort into bread. It needs to hold temp and not leak the heat outside!

It does hold the heat fairly well, I just don't have anything to compare it to.

Welcome to the WFOs Make Sourdough Bakers Humble Club. It is quite simply not easy to make great sourdough in a WFO! It takes attention to detail and a lot of practice to get reliable results.

Good Luck!
Jay

Thanks again and we are not giving up just yet, though I may try some other yeast based recipes now and then as confidence builders!

Eric.

**EricU** · 02-11-2011, 08:05 PM

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

It also amazes me how easy the pizzas were to learn and how brutal the SD bread thing has so far been.

When I was building (not that I am finished) this thing last summer, I did not bother reading the cooking section as I was focused on the construction aspect.

Cooking bread seemed so easy while pizzas seemed like they were going to have the learning curve. Oh well! Live and learn, and if burnt sourdough bread is my biggest problem in life?!!!!

So I think I will continue with my pizzas (the kids LOVE em) chicken, lamb, roasts, tomato's and keep chugging away with the sourdough probably taking a little more notes and giving it more attention.

Eric.

**texassourdough** · 02-11-2011, 10:43 PM

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Hi Eric!

Thanks for your response. I know how bad a failure can feel in front of "company" and you earned an "honest" critique. Glad you understood how to take it. You can make decent crust with less than 15 pounds but great crust in my experience can't be gotten easily with 5 pounds. Others on the listserve are much happier than me with their small batches. I don't know if they have lower standards or better methods. NOTE: you can learn a lot about crust and steam/humidity in a conventional oven too. I don't like this answer but spray the inside of the WFO for at least 30 seconds before loading. Load the loaves quickly. Close the door to a crack and steam for another 30 or so. Seal it and leave it for at least 30 minutes.

Do you have any sugar or oil in your bread? Straight lean dough with no additives shouldn't burn on the bottom unless the oven is really hot.

You need coals all over the floor so the whole floor is hot and relatively uniform. Measure the hearth the dome should be 30 to 50 F warmer. One of the real tricks for bread is every oven is a bit different and you have to learn YOUR oven. My temps are useful only as a beginning point/reference. Your oven may hold more heat or release it back to the oven faster. That would mean you need to start at a lower temp.

That you need to learn your oven is another reason you need consistency. If you aren't consistent you can't use the results to adjust so you go crazy. Best to make only one or two breads, over and over until they are reliable. Then when you change something you can learn from the results. IDY yeasted boules or ciabatta are a great way to learn.

Hang in there!
Jay

**EricU** · 02-12-2011, 09:55 AM

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Originally posted by texassourdough View Post

...you can learn a lot about crust and steam/humidity in a conventional oven too. I don't like this answer but spray for at least 30 seconds before loading. Close the door to a crack and steam for another 30 or so. Seal it and leave it for at least 30 minutes...

Could you elaborate more on the steam process?

Is your method for steaming for an inside regular oven or the WFO? ? Or both?
Why don't you like this method?
Is it a substitution for the 15 lbs of dough, which I wouldn't have a problem with if I can get the bread correct!

Do you have any sugar or oil in your bread? Straight lean dough with no additives shouldn't burn on the bottom unless the oven is really hot.

NO, no sugar and no oil in the recipe.

I do cook chicken in the oven directly on the hearth which has lots of grease spewing out, but I usually have that in a different area and cleaned (I think) with the fire/coals stack. Could the chicken grease be a problem?

You need coals all over the floor so the whole floor is hot and relatively uniform. Measure the hearth the dome should be 30 to 50 F warmer. One of the real tricks for bread is every oven is a bit different and you have to learn YOUR oven. My temps are useful only as a beginning point/reference. Your oven may hold more heat or release it back to the oven faster. That would mean you need to start at a lower temp.

I have not been doing that with the coals, I will try that next time.

So would 550 F on the hearth be a good starting point?

And is that after I swab the hearth? I have been using a damp towel on a rake to swab after removing the coals.

Thanks again for the help and suggestions, I am sure I will have more questions, comments and questions and probably a few more questions!

Eric.

**texassourdough** · 02-12-2011, 10:28 AM

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Hi Eric!

I realized I needed to be explicit on the steaming and forgot to edit it when I had connectivity problems this morning. It is revised. And it is only for a WFO. While you can use garden sprayer (dedicated to WATER ONLY for the oven) on a conventional oven there are IMO better ways like cast iron skillets with lava rocks (which can be used in a WFO also). (but you still want to spray a WFO before and after loading to make sure the humidity is high in the oven). I am after a very specific look and finish on my bread and I haven't been able get it in a WFO without heavy dough loading. I even make load 85% hydration ciabatta in my bread batches to get a bit more steam in the oven. It is not often I want 15 pounds of bread so I mainly bake indoors. There are a number of people on this forum who try to bake one or two loaves and that invites lots of crust problems IMO. If you work in 5 to 8 pound loads you will do much better than in smaller batches.

Chicken grease shouldn't be a problem if the oven is heat loaded but you probably need to fire for two hours or more - periodically - to burn it out of the hearth. I am personally not crazy about the idea of having lots of grease on the hearth for the grease will soak down and permeate the cooler parts of your hearth and undoubtedly eventually turn rancid.

First, burn well past clearing to insure the oven is heat loaded. Clear it (just get most of the stuff out). Close it up and let it heat soak - this creates a more uniform temp through the refractory and loads the refractory so it can send heat back to the oven to bake the bread. Ideally it should heat soak an hour or so. Ideally, at that point the temp on the hearth should be about 600 F and it should be pretty uniform. Here is where you can slow down or speed up a bit depending on how your dough is progressing. If you want to speed up, you can start cleaning the oven a bit early and this time sweep it well. Usually you don't mop until the last minute, but if you want to speed things up more, mop early. The temp will probably drop to 580 or so while cleaning - more if you mop. Close it back up or leave it open depending on how fast it needs to cool off to your loading temp. Get your bread ready... I like to load at 565 but 550 is fine. When the temp is 5-10 degrees hotter, mop the oven well. NOTE: the mop should not be sopping wet. Just damp. This removes excess ash, humidifies the oven some and drops the temp. If the temp is right, spray the oven with your dedicated CLEAN WATER garden sprayer (note this sprayer should be bought from a hardware store and NEVER used with anything but water. It should ideally have a metal wand). Load the bread. Close the door leaving a crack. Spray some more - not on the loaves and not on the refractory but in the air. With a fine mist it will evaporate rapidly and shouldn't cause erosion of the refractory.
Seal, and check back after about 25 to 30 minutes. Rotate loaves as necessary/appropriate. Bake until at least 205 internal temp (and I usually shoot for 210 and higher).

Hang in there. My goal is not to discourage you but to foster realistic expectations. If you follow the path above you should be able to make very nice loaves in 5 pound batches. But use IDY so you can reasonably predict when the bread will be ready to bake until you are consistent. You only have about a 30 minute window for optimal loaves (and I can easily argue 15 but...30 isn't a disaster. An hour can be!)Peter Reinharts recipes in BBA and recent books are a good start and just like pizza dough, the overnight process greatly adds flavor.

Let me know how your next batch works.
Jay

**EricU** · 02-12-2011, 08:55 PM

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Jay,

Thanks for the tips. Just a few more questions before I give it another try as I think the weather here is going to turn to rain again, I know, I know! most people don't realize that it does rain in California and the temps are supposed to get down into the 30s! (I might even need to put on long pants again!)

What temp should I take the WFO up to before removing the coals/fire? I had not been taking it up to pizza temps 850 - 950 F (interior dome temps)
Any IDY (I finally figured that one out, I think) recipes that you would recomend?
Any IDY breads to stay away from until I start getting some of the easier recipes down?

Thanks again for the help to a bread newbie. And I guess I should reread my Alan Scott book and start the BBA that I have had laying around.

Eric.

**texassourdough** · 02-12-2011, 11:07 PM

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Hi Eric!

You really need to take it way past pizza. If you have Scott he will say fire for 3 to 4 hours. If you have a Pompeii two is probably enough - maybe even one and a half for a light load, but if you don't put heat into the refractory you can't get heat back and without heat you can't bake. Putting a big load of dough in the oven (and/or spraying) can easily knock the temp of the surface of the hearth to 300 range. It is the heat you put in the refractory in the extended burn that gives you the heat to get back to the baking range of 450 or so. (and the temp should bounce back to at least 485 or so after you take the bread out and close the door - to prep for the second batch if you were going to do one).

I use Fleichman's. Buy it by the pound. Use it mainly for pizza. Keep it in the freezer for years.

Straight dough is best for learning - just flour, water salt with baker's percentages 100, 62 to 66 or so for water, and 2 for salt in the final dough. The bread will be better if you do a preferment or a presoak of the flour. I will give you some recipes when I am awake.

More soon!
Jay

**splatgirl** · 02-13-2011, 12:53 AM

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

you must must must get to white dome, pizza temps and then, ideally, spread your fire out over the whole hearth and let it die down for a couple of hours before you rake out for bread. If I *just* fire to pizza temp (in my 36" pompeii, that's 1.5-2 hours depending on how big a fire I make), rake out immediately and let it come down to baking temp, I'll have burnt bottoms every time, no matter what the thermometer says. A longer firing and heat cycle works produces a much nicer result for me.

What's your favorite kind of bread? Start with that. Pick a recipe and give it a go. Repeat as necessary

As Jay says, Bread Bakers Apprentice (or any of the other Reinhardt titles) is a good book for beginners.

IDY, aka instant dry yeast is also known as bread machine yeast, which you can find in the supermarket in the little envelopes to start with. Active dry yeast is fine and will work, the difference being ADY wants to be dissolved in water before meeting dry ingredients vs. IDY that can go right in with the dry stuff. Most serious bread baking texts and recipes are written for IDY, so if you're going to go all in with this, you may as well standardize that variable as soon as possible.
At some point you may find it worthwhile to purchase in a larger package. I also buy mine 1lb. at a time (I use SAF), freezing half the package until I'm through the first half. I mostly do sourdough, so I'm on about a 1/2lb. a year schedule with yeast.

**EricU** · 02-13-2011, 10:08 AM

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Originally posted by splatgirl View Post

...you must must must get to white dome, pizza temps and then, ideally, spread your fire out over the whole hearth and let it die down for a couple of hours before you rake out for bread. If I *just* fire to pizza temp (in my 36" pompeii, that's 1.5-2 hours depending on how big a fire I make), rake out immediately and let it come down to baking temp, I'll have burnt bottoms every time, no matter what the thermometer says. A longer firing and heat cycle works produces a much nicer result for me.

I definately was NOT firing it to those temps and I certainly had burnt bottoms!, I do genrerally fire my WFO for at least three hours at a time but I will crank up the heat next time.

Originally posted by splatgirl View Post

...As Jay says, Bread Bakers Apprentice (or any of the other Reinhardt titles) is a good book for beginners.

Funny thing is that I purchased both Scott's book and the BBA at the same time but just started reading the BBA. I think I will try the non-SD French Bread mix.

Originally posted by splatgirl View Post

...IDY, aka instant dry yeast is also known as bread machine yeast, which you can find in the supermarket in the little envelopes to start with. Active dry yeast is fine and will work, the difference being ADY wants to be dissolved in water before meeting dry ingredients vs. IDY that can go right in with the dry stuff. Most serious bread baking texts and recipes are written for IDY, so if you're going to go all in with this, you may as well standardize that variable as soon as possible.

I need to go hit the store this morning and my new term IDY is on top of the list! I assume the Fleischmann's "Rapid Rise" is the item from my local supermarket?

Originally posted by texassourdough View Post

Hi Eric!
...I use Fleichman's. Buy it by the pound. Use it mainly for pizza. Keep it in the freezer for years.

Straight dough is best for learning - just flour, water salt with baker's percentages 100, 62 to 66 or so for water, and 2 for salt in the final dough. The bread will be better if you do a preferment or a presoak of the flour. I will give you some recipes when I am awake.

More soon!
Jay

Thanks guys, I REALLY appreciate the pointers (this is one of the GREAT aspects of the internet!) I now have a direction, an awakening (bread is not just open the packages, mix the igredients and Viola!) and though humbled, I am not discouraged or disheartened!

What is now killing me is our weather is turning to rain again as we have so spoiled for the last three weeks here in Northern California (it was 82 on SuperBowl Sunday) and I have not finished my WFOs enclosure, but when done my I will be able to bake/cook in the rain with planned overhang and lighting!

One more question; If I move my bread honing skills indoors (electric convection oven) do I just use a plain baking sheet, one of the double layer baking sheets or should I use a stone?

Again, Thanks!

Eric.

**splatgirl** · 02-13-2011, 04:04 PM

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

You'll need a stone. Also, the technique of baking the loaf in a cast iron pot produces amazing results. Google "no-knead bread" and give that a go or two. It's a great learning experience, dough and technique-wise and will teach you things about bread that can be applied to any recipe. Unfortunately, you're basically limited to the boule shape using a pot as a cooking vessel, but it's totally, totally worth it.
If you don't already have a cast-iron LeCreuset-type pot with a lid, consider going the combo cooker route:
https://secure.lodgemfg.com/storefro...idProduct=4082
https://secure.lodgemfg.com/storefro...idProduct=4044
These let you put your shaped dough into the shallow part and cover with the deep part, which I've found is much easier than trying to wrangle and slash dough down in a deep pot. Plus the Lodge stuff is quite a bit cheaper than most enameled cast iron and you get two pieces for the price of one with the combo cookers.

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