Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

[EricU]

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

...the technique of baking the loaf in a cast iron pot produces amazing results. Google "no-knead bread" and give that a go or two. It's a great learning experience, dough and technique-wise and will teach you things about bread that can be applied to any recipe. Unfortunately, you're basically limited to the boule shape using a pot as a cooking vessel, but it's totally, totally worth it.
If you don't already have a cast-iron LeCreuset-type pot with a lid, consider going the combo cooker route:
https://secure.lodgemfg.com/storefro...idProduct=4082
https://secure.lodgemfg.com/storefro...idProduct=4044...

Het Splat, I just checked out some videos on the No-Knead and I already have a whole bunch of Lodge cast iron, got a leg of lamb cooking in the WFO right now in my cast iron dutch oven. So I will definately give that idea a try!

Right now my WFO is at under 900 including the walls, it was well above 950 and the exterior of the dome is about 115 F. I am just getting readey to proof what I think will be four or five loaves of french bread from the BBA recipe (I doubled it). After shaping the loaves and starting the proofing I will remove the lamb from the oven and start preping it for bread!

Used the IDY, and the stuff definately rose, much more than our SD and now I am getting kind of anxious!! But I will take my time.

I will let you guys know how it turns out! Stay tuned!!! Lamb and Frenc Bread are sounding pretty good right about now (but I am going to cook some rice in case I "brick" or burn the bread!!)


Eric

[EricU]

Getting better but still not great

Well, I did try another batch, used the BBA IDY French Bread recipe. Doubled up the recipe as I figured that either I would screw up the cooking enough to have more than one attempt or if it came out good I have two teenage boys.

I think I had the hearth too hot this time, though I certainly had the brick mass heat soaked and an even temp.

I went and bought a digital probe thermometer and some more wooden mixing spoons.

I measured by volume as I still don't have a scale - Any suggestions on scales? Are the twenty dollar ones at the local stores that go to 0.1 oz good enough?

Mixed the dough by hand, used a 50/50 mix of bread flour and AP flour. The Bread Flour was some Con Agra bleached that a friend gave me which we will not use anymore after it is used up. The AP is KA which is what we get at our local store.

The starter dough, and the second rise did quite well and seemed to rise as much as the recipe called for. Shaping the loaves for the proofing stage seemed to go well.

When I went to move them to the peel, I had a little trouble as I had more than one each of two sheets and a couple of loaves seemed to "deflate" a little, next time I think I will use individual sheets of parchment paper for each loaf.

I followed Splat's suggestions on the WFO prep, but I think my hearth temp was too high at over 550 F. The first loaf burned the bottom almost immediately and the second one did almost the same. I was pretty bummed at that point but kept tossing em in the WFO. When I pulled them out the crust seemed kind of hard, but then again I don't what it should feel like. The internal temp was right at 205 F according to my new remote probe thermometer.

After bringing the loaves inside, I didn't wait to cut the best looking and least burnt loaf that has just a bit of surface black on the bottom. It definitely tasted good. There were some uniform air pockets and again I am not sure what it should look like.

So now we have a week of rain, and the WFO is sidelined until the good weather returns, but I am going to get a stone and maybe a scale today from our local kitchen supply which is an old school family run crammed shelf place in the old section of downtown, so I can continue indoors.

Thanks again for the help guys, it is getting better. All the loaves were eaten this time, though some took more trimming than others. Overll score this time, C-

Eric

[splatgirl]

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

For me, 550F hearth temp is way too hot. I shoot for between 450 and 500. I would never load with a hearth/overall temp over 500F. Your burnt bottoms and under browned tops reflect too high a temp. Next time, try loading at 450F. I think you'll have better results even if you change nothing else.

I have a OXO scale from Target. I think it was $30. It only goes to 5lb. which means for really large batches I have to split up the measuring, but that's not a big deal vs. the significantly larger expense of a 11lb. scale. I have a smaller gram scale for measuring yeast and salt, but I rarely bother using it.

The individual parchment sheets is a good idea. I have sometimes used a whole sheet up to the point of being ready to bake, then I just cut the sheet apart around the proofed loaves to transfer/load.
At some point you may find yourself in want of specialized proofing tools like a linen cloth (couche) for baguette/batard and either bannetons or brotforms for round/oval shapes. I still use parchment for WFO baking. In that case, I dump out or roll the proofed loaves onto pieces of parchment to load.

As you progress, you'll find you start paying a lot more attention to bread. You are likely to arrive on a pretty specific set of criteria for what you like as far as crust, crumb, etc. Ultimately, it comes down to what you like. Of course there are specific criteria upon which each style or type of bread could be judged in the professional realm, but if you're happy, does it matter? At any level, it's useful and interesting to seek out examples of breads that are well made or understood to be prime examples of their particular style to establish a reference for yourself. Seek out great bread and eat great bread!
The best thing about baking, especially when you're a beginner, is that the sense of accomplishment when you produce something edible and even kind of good far outweighs the shortcomings of the loaf. Improving your skills also means you'll improve your critical skills...for better or worse!
As it happens, I just baked a batch of the BBA French (with a couple of adjustments) because I needed some baguette on the fly for a dinner party. My first batch of IDY dough in ages!
baguette 2-12-11 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
In no way a stellar example, but it gives you something to compare to at least.

Here was my first ever bread from the WFO, also my first sourdough, from my first ever successfully cultivated starter:
first attempt at sourdough in the WFO | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
It sucked on every level, but I was over the moon.
A years' worth of practice later:
cereales and pain campagne from the WFO | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
And then, at long last, starting to look the way I think it should:
rip! | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

This season, if I can tweak the variables to get a boule from the WFO that compares to these I've managed from the indoor oven, I'll be pleased:
Best yet from the indoor oven! | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

As Jay says, bake on!

[splatgirl]

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

editing for double post

[EricU]

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

For me, 550F hearth temp is way too hot. I shoot for between 450 and 500. I would never load with a hearth/overall temp over 500F. Your burnt bottoms and under browned tops reflect too high a temp. Next time, try loading at 450F. I think you'll have better results even if you change nothing else.

Yeah, I cant wait to get the WFO fired up again, but apparently we are getting our version of winter now. But I need to learn time and temp management of my WFO.

Picking up a stone today for the indoor oven and will mix up a batch of the pre-ferment later today for an attempt at indoor bread tomorrow.

I might also try the No-Knead batch tonight also.

By the way, I love your oven (if that is yours with the red-flame tiles at the entry door) way cool design.

And again, thanks to you and Jay for all the help.

Eric.

[SableSprings]

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Eric, sounds like you've already gotten some fabulous advice here. FYI, I started out with a "San Francisco" sourdough starter in 1974. For many years my sourdough loaves looked and felt more like hockey pucks than bread--sound familiar? I'd basically kept my starter (named Bill) alive for almost 37 years simply for making waffles. When I retired and built a WFO in 2009/2010 I started looking at sourdough bread again. I agree with Jay and Splatgirl as to "all the details" that make for a success one day and a failure the next with the oven breads.

As to good sourdough bread formulas, Joe Ortiz in The Village Baker has excellent explanations, formulas, and time charts (I use his Country-Style French Bread formula for my favorite sourdough bread). I highly recommend his book. I found in the reading that I had three basic problems with my previous sourdough bread attempts. 1) My sourdough culture was not active enough. By feeding and refreshing Bill (now Chef Bill) 2-3 times a week, I got a much stronger culture that worked far better for my bread, 2) My fermentation temps for Chef Bill were better when in the 60-70F range rather than the +80F I'd seen in most other formulas and finally 3) loaf rises of 12-16 hrs at the cooler temps were to be expected and 6-8 hr rises were my norm.

Also check out The Art of Wood Fired Cooking by Andrea Mugnaini for info on how to get a consistent heat loading in your oven for baking and other firing techniques for everything else (including pizza).

Bottom line is that now I keep Chef Bill active on the counter, don't worry about warming the house to proof bread on baking day, and plan for longer final loaf rises, my sourdoughs have been continuing to improve. I've got a link to some pictures of my oven and breads on www.sablesprings.com at the bottom (Dragonfly Den). A neighbor and I bake together each week and normally produce a total of 16-20 loaves (variety rules when we bake...anything from Challah to baguettes might be planned) on an average day.

Mike

[splatgirl]

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Thanks Eric. The red sculptural element around the door was the worst and most painful mosaic project of my life (and I have done some huge and crazy ones). I still have grout embedded in my skin.

Starter management is a huge piece of the puzzle, yes.
IME, the keys are:
Always do at least a 4x feeding (expansion) of your existing starter
If you store your starter in the fridge (I do), always allow it to peak/double before putting it back in.

I bake fairly regularly, so I end up feeding about once a week in preparation. I never feed unless I know I want to bake within the next few days. If it's been more than two weeks since my last bake, I allow enough time for two feed-peak cycles prior to using the starter. My starter takes about 6-8 hours to double at cool room temp when it's in good shape. If it takes longer than that, I know I need to repeat the feeding before I use it.
As Mike points out, every starter is different--find what works for you and yours and stick to it. There isn't a right or wrong way.

[texassourdough]

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

SplatG is triple right on IMO. Happy yeast is critical (though in SD EVERYTHING is critical!). Good advice from both SplatG and SableS.

Great sourdough is an evolution. The good news as SableS suggests is even mediocre SD can be wonderful. And getting it all right is divine!
Jay

[EricU]

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Thanks again for all the help, I feel like I have progressed quite a bit with the guidance provided by you guys and finally reading the books I have.

And Splat, I am just threw in my first No Knead Bread in the oven - and now am waiting!



In the past few days my wife and I have been buying tools, thermometers, baking stones (also known as HD satillo tiles for $1.17 each), a cheap basket, a Danish wisk and some wood spoons.

My wife has two (or three) different starters going (SD & a Desum starter from scratch using wheat from a local grinder) and I have my pre-ferment ready for some indoor loaves to bake tomorrow night. If the rain lets up this weekend, I may fire up the WFO again if the next couple of nights indoor loaves go good (or even if they come out ok, hell if I can I will fire it up anyway no matter how the bread comes out as I think I am a pyro!)

And Bill, if you need any more bricks I may have some for you!

Eric

[EricU]

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Well the "No Knead" came out pretty tasty!!





Now on to the more traditional style loaves!!!

Eric

[Tman1]

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Geez, looks better than any of my no-knead attempts. Tell me more about these tiles.. I LOVE the price. A SKU# should be good across the country.

[EricU]

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

TMan, thanks it really came out awesome and it really was simple - Thanks Splatgirl for the suggestion!

The tiles are are just unglazed Mexican Clay Pavers and are about 11 1/2" x 11 1/2" x 3/8" thick. HD has them (at our store) just sitting out in the tile isle and they call them "Saltilo Tiles". Some of them even have "Animal Prints" labeled on the box which is a nice little marketing term as they run cats through the drying areas at the Mexican factories to give us gringos the feeling that we have something special!! I can check for a product number next time I am down there.

Just make sure they are Unglazed. And don't worry about thermo shock, just wipe em off and bring em up to 500 + F once to kill off anything and you are good to go. If one breaks - toss it. And for a buck a piece (OK $1.17 plus tax) you can stack them if you feel like it.

I haven't used mine yet, but plan on it tonight, so I will let you know how they work out.



And I do have a question for the WFO bread experts that have been helping me with my bread making endeavor --- I have a cast iron tea pot for camping (the one in the thumbnail) would that help with steam in the WFO? I can certainly pre heat it and stick it in the WFO prior to or during the baking process.

Any thoughts?

Thanks again, Eric.

[texassourdough]

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Hi Eric!

Glad the noknead worked for you. For oven steaming the cast iron teapot might work fairly well, especially if boosted by a burst of steam from lava rocks or something, but any steam is better than none and more steam is better than less. So go for it.

Good luck!
Jay

[EricU]

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Jay,

Thanks, my wife will be glad as I did kind of a test with her favorite red teapot that had (as in past tense) red silicone (?) handle inserts that didn't quite live up to the heat of the WFO!!

My plan is to just insert the cast iron tea pot in the WFO after the initial kindling fire is good and going and then let it warm up with the dome and hearth, just before baking I will take boiling water from my wife's now messed up red tea pot outside and transfer it to the cast iron tea pot.

I figure it is worth a try!

Eric.

[splatgirl]

Re: Sourdough Bread FAILURE!!

Your no-knead came out beautifully! It really is magic, that whole cast-iron pot baking business.

For creating steam, a wider, open surface will work better, IME. The teapot would be better than nothing, but a cast iron skillet will be superior because it offers a larger evaporative surface than a teapot...KWIM? A shallow depth, wide pool of water is more likely to maintain boiling temp and thus steam vs. tall and deep.

In the regular oven, I use a (preheated to oven temp) cast iron skillet and toss in a scoop of ice cubes right before the bread goes in. I typically do a full oven's worth of bread in the WFO so added steam isn't as critical, but I'd still do the skillet method.