Bread Maker Wanna-Be

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Yes, I have had that steam experience too... it is a wonderful smell. Do I understand you begin with heavy (600g +) boules? I reasoned (probably irrationally) that lighter baguettes with less crumb would cook the most even at higher temps?

How long does your oven take to "recharge"? My vault doesn't lose a lot of heat but the hearth loses 50 to 75 degrees with each load... it'll come back up to within 20-30 degrees of where I started the initial bake if I let, but I get impatient and put the next load in pretty quick.

I'm still learning that the heat at the outside of the brick will move towards the inside of the oven to level out the heat... it seems counterintuitive that an oven without an active heat source will reheat itself... but of course the bricks are an active heat source.

Part of my problem is that this is still so new to me that experience hasn't taught me to trust the capabilities of the oven. For weeks I've been telling myself that I shouldn't keep a fire going past 7pm on Friday night so I can begin baking bread a little earlier (11am or so), but when the time comes I convince myself that last week was a fluke and just to be on the safe side I throw 2 or 3 more logs on the fire and put the door on around 8pm or 9pm. This last week I went through this and when I went to check the oven temp at 12:30pm on Sat. the temp was 680F... so I had to leave the door off for a while just to get the temp to drop for baking. I don't want to waste wood.

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

I baked this weekend (48 loaves)... today I was outside baking and it was 10F and windy... what am I thinking?

I went with a long bulk ferment again... very similar to last week's schedule, but I had to divide my baking between Sat. and Sun.

I keep burning the bottoms of some of my loaves. Today I loaded the oven with heavy boules first (650g) and the hearth temp was 540F and the vault was 570F. The bottoms of half of the loaves burned (still edible, but not enough to give to others). I know I could wait until the oven was cooler, but I read of people baking between 540F and 580F... so what am I doing wrong? The internal temp of the loaves is not over 205F when I remove them from the oven.

I am really happy with the oven spring and my scoring is getting better. I need to find a middle ground for scoring. In the weeks past I was slashing too much which allowed for "flatter" loaves and this week I didn't slash deep enough and had some tearing.

I'm really pleased with the baguette open crumb. Next weekend I hope to do a batch of seven-grain bread that incorporates a soaker into the dough, as well as some Rosemary sourdough. My "customers" are surely getting tired of the same three breads.

[SCChris]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

John, I like your crumb and crust, I tend toward baking to a deeper color but this is personal. From what I've been told, your small breads should be baked first and at higher temps and hydration plays a part in the equation.

The reasoning behind smaller loaves baking hotter is that these require less time to brown and bake through. Baguettes might only take 20 minutes where a large miche could take 70 or so minutes to bake well, more or less. With higher hydration, the loaves will tolerate a higher temp, give more oven spring and a more open crumb but they will also require more time to clear the extra water and so maintain a crusty crust, not forgetting to mention how different and difficult shaping hi hydration dough can be, initially anyways.

In contrast to the small, unenriched breads, the bigger loaves just take more time. In one class the instructor didn't want the top to burn or over brown and so after turning the loaf out but before placing the loaf into the oven, he generously floured the top before slashing. In another the baker found the loaves were browning a bit too fast on the bottom and so he relocated these to the side of the oven, tilted them on edge balanced against the wall to complete the bake. In all of the classes that I’ve had, the bakers, professional bakers, baked by feel and sound. The fully baked loaves should really sound hollow and if you gently squeeze the boules they shouldn’t really yield, the crust should be solidly set. Feel is a better judge of doneness than is temperature, in my opinion.

Enriched breads will require a cooler bake because the butter, eggs, sugar, milk or whatever will burn at these higher temps.

Chris

[Tonyp]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Those baguettes look awesome John! I am with Chris, the long narrow baguettes go first and with the high hydration and shape they could be going upwards of 600f without too much trouble. But then again I like a nice dark crust and don't consider it burned unless it's pretty darn close to black. Did you take a photo of the bottoms on those you feel were burned? Maybe try mopping the hearth prior to putting the loaves in? That would drop your hearth temp a bit and slow the cooking on the bottom initially and add some steam to the oven.

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Here is a picture of a loaf with "burnt" bottom and the top view of the same loaf. The crumb is moist/chewy and the top crust is good, but the bottom has a burnt taste.

[SableSprings]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Chris hit the high points pretty well in post #48 above. I bake my 400g baguettes (69% hydration) at around 575F and they are done in 15 minutes. I check them mid-bake and move/swap some of the outside perimeter loaves with those in the middle. Again as Chris noted, it really is important to think about each loaf as an individual and judge it by the look and feel. A timer gives you an approximate guide on when to start checking for doneness...you have to make that final call. I have no problems with pulling out a loaf or two that just looks more done than the others near it or leaving some in that just haven't got the right browning yet. Also, Tony's suggestion of using the wet mop (or even the water misting) can really help lower the hearth temp when you're in a bind.

One thing you said bothers me a little and that is the initial 540 hearth/570 dome temps. I pull my coals out, clean the hearth, close the door, and let the oven equalize for an hour or so. The oven temps (top/bottom/sides) after the clean & close are the same...not 30F different. Are you doing the equalizing step? I think it makes a huge difference in providing a reproducible baking performance of the oven.

I usually do the larger boules for 20-25 minutes and don't have problems with the bottom burning (over carmelized OC ). The hearth temp has normally dropped to the low 500s before I load them in and I get internal temps for the boules of the target 205F ish in that time frame. I have been impatient and thrown loaves into an oven that I know is too hot, but after the crust has set I will put them up on an inverted sheet pan and have had pretty good luck with reducing/eliminating the OC. With the large number of loaves in your oven, you're just going to have to find that sweet spot of heat and time for your oven and the type/size of loaf you've put together.

(By the way, cutting off the bottom OC (burnt) crust & making the loaf into bread cubes gives you a great reason to do a savory or sweet bread pudding.)

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Chris, Tony, Mike,

Thanks for the replies and helpful advice. Regarding the hearth and vault temperatures after letting the oven equalize over night I still have around a 30 degree difference between hearth and ceiling. I will be trying/following your collective advice this weekend. I think with your help I'll be able to avoid some of the problems. Every week I seem to improve in one are (i.e. scoring) and a new problem crops up... but eventually I'll get more consistent results.

[SCChris]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Here is a picture of a loaf with "burnt" bottom and the top view of the same loaf. The crumb is moist/chewy and the top crust is good, but the bottom has a burnt taste.

The bottom as shown doesn't really look burnt, at least by my standards, but the burnt taste is really the key. I can't really tell, but it looks like you may have a significant amount raw flour on the bottom, and if so, is it possible that the burnt taste that you're getting is more related to the raw flour burning off?

I'd try to relocate the loaves to the side wall of the oven, balanced on edge. This will allow you to get another 5 - 10 minutes at heat to darken the top crust and drive out water that could soften the crust while and after cooling. If you like the top color then consider moving the breads to the sidewall 5 minutes earlier.

Anyway don't be to self critical about the loaves with respect to being able to pass them along, the loaf in your picture is very presentable. Your critical eye and taste will find always find some fault, some aspect, that you'd like to change or explore, just enjoy the learning!

Chris

PS Here is a link to an online magazine about bread. The magazine is well written and I think the older issues are downloadable for free. Again enjoy!
http://bread.insanelyinterested.com/

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

(By the way, cutting off the bottom OC (burnt) crust & making the loaf into bread cubes gives you a great reason to do a savory or sweet bread pudding.)

Here's the results after following your advice. Basil, Tomato, Onion, Garlic, Rosemary sourdough bread pudding!

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Today was a success! For the first time all my loaves turned out really nice. I baked 79 loaves today (somewhere between 75 and 90lbs. of dough). I didn't do as long as a bulk proof (schedule conflicts), but still was able to bulk proof for at least 12 hrs. and up to 18 hours before shaping. I made 6 different batches of bread: Rosemary Sourdough, Sourdough, French, French Whole Wheat (50% whole wheat), Golden Sesame/Semonlina, and the baguettes [AP flour with 25% Kombucha (yeast water), 50% water, the portion of sourdough starter removed from the sourdough levains, and ADY). I also used a pullman loaf for the first time and did a Pan de Mie with cinnamon swirl.

I read the on-line magazines Chris directed me towards. I made something to place my baguettes upon after they had baked awhile to avoid burnt bottoms. My oven temps were a little lower for some of the bread which made for longer cook times, but no risk of burning.

On top of the bread making I tried to pay close attention to how the oven functioned. I do not know how efficient may oven is compared to anything else, but I am pleased with being able to cook this much bread with the heat from Friday night's fire.

Since, I don't want to begin another thread here's a quick run-down of oven performance:
I started the fire on Fri. at 2pm. Between 2pm and 7pm I burned 17 pieces of wood total (each piece was between 18 and 20in long and split in pieces with the end looking like an equilateral triangle with approx. 5" sides). Between 5:30 and 7pm I cooked 10 pizzas. I put the door on with coals still in the oven at 7:30pm.

Today at 11:30 the temp. was 626F. I reheated 4 left over pizzas from last night at 12pm. Baguettes went in around 12:30pm. Rosemary sourdough @ 1:30, French batards @ 2:30, Sourdough @ 3:30, Wheat French @ 4:45, Golden Sesame @ 6pm, 4 loaves of cinnamon bread and 2 savory bread puddings (13x9 pans) @ 7:15.

When I checked the temp after pulling the cinnamon loaves the ceiling was at 400F and the hearth at 350F.

Again, I do not presume unusual oven efficiency I am simply amazed that I could bake so much bread with the heat from one fire (not my longest or biggest either). The oven was a little too cool for the Golden Sesame batch (very little oven spring). So maybe 5 loads instead of 6 is my max.

P.S. Too bad my kids won't let me use there wagon to deliver bread!

[SCChris]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

A Hugh congratulations to you!

Chris

[SableSprings]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

You're producing some awesome batches of bread John!

Are you getting feedback on which loaves are the most popular? Do you have a spreadsheet or some record keeping method to keep track of your bread distribution & ingredient costs, approx. cost/loaf, etc.?

...you do realize that your neighbors aren't going to let you just go on vacation without a fight

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Are you getting feedback on which loaves are the most popular? Do you have a spreadsheet or some record keeping method to keep track of your bread distribution & ingredient costs, approx. cost/loaf, etc.?

This is all very funny to me. On Nov. 8th (11 weeks ago?) I cooked in the oven for the first time. I built the oven to make pizza. I've been baking bread for 8 weeks (in that time I've made 400+ loaves).

Each type of bread has been complimented. Some like only white French, others sourdough, and some like the sesame best. No type of record keeping at this point, but that is next on the list if I keep pursuing this bread making gig. I belong to a CSA(community supported agriculture) and have been sharing the bread with the farmers (friends who live close to me). They asked if I was considering selling the bread and invited me to see if other members of the CSA (150 households) would be interested in purchasing my bread. So now I have to decide if I want to try to sell bread... I sure like giving it away. My first opportunity to showcase my bread would be the end of March, so I'm going to keep baking and see if I can produce results like yesterday consistently. If I can, then maybe this very new hobby will become a meager means of supporting my household. I am open to the possibility of selling bread, but since it has only been 8 weeks since I baked my first loaf of bread, and I had never thought about such an endeavor prior to about 3 weeks ago, I still have a lot to figure out.

Still having fun,

John

[Greenman]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Sounds like a problem that will present its own solution. Watching from the sidelines you have pursued baking bread with a passion and that can only lead to increasing success.

I have only a limited knowledge of how CSA works but your growing skills could only support the principle as I understand it.

Good luck with whatever decision you make. I expect that you have identified the various options and suspect that you already have laid a path.

[JohnR]

Re: Bread Maker Wanna-Be

Another good bake last weekend, not much new to report other than pics of a new bread: 7 grain with 50% whole wheat. It turned out nicely.

I called the health department and in our county/state there are currently very few regulations regarding cottage bakery/food preparation as long as the product passes directly from the producer to the consumer without an intermediary. So, I am going to go the selling route. I am trying to figure out the legal necessities/requirement for taxes, liability, etc. but it looks like an LLC might be the best route.

I have sourced local organic flour from Heartland Mill about 90 minutes away. The average price per pound is $.94. My wife and I are throwing around names and logo ideas and I am looking into simple packaging solutions: white bags with a custom made rubber stamp logo and a sticker label for ingredients, etc. I plan to have 2 bake days a week (Wed. and Sat.) and sell/deliver bread within 8 hours of coming out of the oven (hopefully sooner). My customer base will be CSA members who will have the ability to sign up for a "Bread Share", i.e. $96 gets you 1 loaf of bread for 24 weeks.

Thankfully I am not investing very much into this project, so if it doesn't work I can go back to the "give it all away" model of bread making.