Rocko's Build Log

[Rocko Bonaparte]

We decided not to do the block wall since that would be the singlemost expensive part of the project and may be unnecessary. We don't know if it's worth investing in that, and we can do a few other things for sound abatement if the fence just doesn't cut it.

For what it's worth, the cement folks said digging the footing ourselves would have saved $500, when I would have spent probably $350 and my weekend digging it myself. So I wouldn't bother because I'd be stressing and risking ending up paying more to do it myself.

I've attached a rough scheme of what I'm putting in. Day-to-day the dimensions will skew a little bit, but it's roughly 10 feet along on the vertical coarse, 16 feet on the diagonal, and then 9 feet on the diagonal. There's a sink in the vertical. The pizza oven will go where the diagonal meets the horizontal. A smoker goes on the end. The smoker is tight with the pool, and it's generally crowded right there with the pizza oven. However, we wanted both to be pointed towards the house; guests should then be attracted towards them, and I can check if my wife set the pizza oven on fire from a safe vantage inside the house.

As a side note, this is roughly what we paid an architect to tell us. It's only slightly different from our last plan before we got that help. I do want to complain that I felt like we were spending a lot of money on redrawing off a bad survey; the pool was never precise and I had indicated that. Also, I think I basically paid them to explain pizza ovens to them. On the other hand, they sharpened that plan a little and basically confirmed the aesthetics of the plan we had given. I won't ultimately complain because we had been through lot of schemes before settling on this rough idea. I will give the architect credit for suggesting poking the oven out a little. We have Live Oaks behind all this and I don't want to disrupt their roots.

There is an expanse there where I could probably dump something else in. I was thinking about building in some propane burners, but I don't really know what to do.

The smoke will be a vertical smoker with an offset chamber under the counter.

The electrician will be running the lines Friday and the concrete folks should be coming later in the month. I should be able to get all the bricks and crap dropped off at my house in April and then my agony truly begins.

[Rocko Bonaparte]

The electrician slapped in an electrical box out of my trench so I could finally shape everything for the concrete. The plumbing and electrical lines are all in place for the kitchen itself. The concrete guy--despite having looked at the place once before--had mentioned I had dug much deeper than I needed and would have to fill in. Actually, the big problem turned out to be the slope in the existing slap. We're paving over it while joining it to the expanded area, and that means adding on two inches... from the highest point. So I was able to get an anchor there, tie a line out 2 inches from there, and check the extents of the expansion. I was 16-18" below the new surface at various points. He wanted a 12" skirt right on the outside, but I had to fill in much higher inside of that.

So I am spending the weekend practically undoing a bunch of digging I had done some time ago. Fortunately, I could borrow the neighbor's tractor and dump much of those piles back in. I have to finish putting more in, spreading it around, and tamping it in tomorrow.

It is frustrating that the concrete guy could have indicated this originally and I would have known I only needed to give the ground a haircut to put in the new slab. I wouldn't have been in such a frenzy.

I will try to share some photos tomorrow of where I'm at.

[Rocko Bonaparte]

My weekend in pictures. The hole just kept eating all the dirt I was dumping back into it. I was reaching a point where I would be filling above the base of the existing slab if I kept going, and I decided to pause and check with my concrete guy. I was also running out of dirt!

The electrical is in, but I had some strange experiences with it. I was starting to install the receptacles, lights, and switches to the shed part of the project. I went to test my first light and turned on the breakers. The breaker in the shed hummed loudly for five seconds, and then nothing would turn on. Yeah. Nothing tripped or anything. I turned the breakers back off!

I also have to run this last bit of PVC outside of the concrete area to help with some drainage. I naturally ran into another stump. I managed to whack both sides of my head alternately when trying to rip chunks of it out of the ground.

So you know, situation normal.

[texman]

It gets easier after all of this foundation and utility work. Be sure that you have all those utilities working and be sure to make sure they are where you want them before concrete goes in. Do you need any floor drains ? That electrical sounds a bit spooky to me. Are you using the tractor to compact the fill? Wet it and pack it numerous times to get a firm base.

[Rocko Bonaparte]

It gets easier after all of this foundation and utility work. Be sure that you have all those utilities working and be sure to make sure they are where you want them before concrete goes in. Do you need any floor drains ? That electrical sounds a bit spooky to me. Are you using the tractor to compact the fill? Wet it and pack it numerous times to get a firm base.

The concrete appointment got moved two weeks. He was available sooner, but I have too much stuff going on the weekend of the 1st and cannot do it then. So he'll swing by sometime before then to verify everything I had done.

I had tamped the dirt... before I dumped some more dirt on top of it. After the tamping, I saw I needed another two inches or so everywhere. I can't get the tractor on top of all of that so I am limited with how much I can do. If I have to tamp it more, I might give it a shot anyways.

There is a drain already and I have all the electrical installed and arranged. What is coming out there are three lines:
1. Hooked up to a switch inside that runs two lights outside already. When flipping that switch, it will turn on the additional lights I will install.
2. A dedicated line for an outdoor water heater.
3. One more line to split between spare outlets and an under-counter fridge.

So as it stands, all I can really do is start calculating all the materials I need and possibly get that shipment arranged. I will try to post a drawing of what I want to do with the smoker on here and hopefully somebody can tell me if that is doable. I was particularly hoping to alternately stack firebricks normal and on their side to create a thin firebrick interior with the flag bricks giving me shelves to run trays to hold meat and possibly charcoal for grilling directly in the chamber. I don't know if this is stable to do a ~6' wall of.

[texman]

Rocko
glad you have some time before concrete. I will reply in detail tomorrow on your plan.

[texman]

The concrete appointment got moved two weeks. He was available sooner, but I have too much stuff going on the weekend of the 1st and cannot do it then. So he'll swing by sometime before then to verify everything I had done.

I had tamped the dirt... before I dumped some more dirt on top of it. After the tamping, I saw I needed another two inches or so everywhere. I can't get the tractor on top of all of that so I am limited with how much I can do. If I have to tamp it more, I might give it a shot anyways.

There is a drain already and I have all the electrical installed and arranged. What is coming out there are three lines:
1. Hooked up to a switch inside that runs two lights outside already. When flipping that switch, it will turn on the additional lights I will install.
2. A dedicated line for an outdoor water heater.
3. One more line to split between spare outlets and an under-counter fridge.

So as it stands, all I can really do is start calculating all the materials I need and possibly get that shipment arranged. I will try to post a drawing of what I want to do with the smoker on here and hopefully somebody can tell me if that is doable. I was particularly hoping to alternately stack firebricks normal and on their side to create a thin firebrick interior with the flag bricks giving me shelves to run trays to hold meat and possibly charcoal for grilling directly in the chamber. I don't know if this is stable to do a ~6' wall of.

Are you having to get city permits for this?

1. The concrete contractor should have plate compactors, or other tamping tools to get it where he wants it to be as far as compaction. Also, He should use sand to achieve the final bed for the pour. I'm not sure of your arrangement with the concrete contractor, but let him get it ready, that is normal, especially compaction and sand. And you want a really well compacted and prepared base for a clean pour and to avoid stress cracks. Is he using rebar or wire in the slab? Use rebar if you can, shouldn't be much more and worth it. Also, is he tieing in the slab where it meets other existing concrete?

2. Have that electrician load test all that wiring and make sure it is good. Your lights will probably be LED, so you can have as many as you need on one circuit and split the run if you need multiple switches.
The outdoor water heater- sounds like a point of service unit i am guessing. If so, you will love it. But, make sure that you have a unit picked out and match the wiring to that unit. there are many variations, most are 220v and up to 50amp. Probably in the #4 to #6 stranded wire range. Check what you have, very difficult to redo after poor. You are in Austin, so the water above the slab shoudnt be a problem usually. But you may want a plug for a heater under your cabinets for frost protection.
The run for the plugs will need GFCI either at plugs or the breakers, i would do plugs. Most outdoor rated fridges will have a circuit breaker on the cord to plug in, make sure that plug is accessible in case it trips so you don't have to pull the whole fridge out to reset. Ask me how i know. Depending on your estimated loads for the plugs, you may need another run, think about that.

3. The smoker config-6 feet is a too tall for a single wythe wall. You will need a double wythe wall with rebar extended from the slab through the cavity between wythes for support. But, that is doable.

[Rocko Bonaparte]

Are you having to get city permits for this?

I'm right outside city limits--technically in the extra-territorial jurisdiction. Still, I did get a permit, which is where they flipped out over the septic and set me back a year.

1. The concrete contractor should have plate compactors, or other tamping tools to get it where he wants it to be as far as compaction. Also, He should use sand to achieve the final bed for the pour. I'm not sure of your arrangement with the concrete contractor, but let him get it ready, that is normal, especially compaction and sand. And you want a really well compacted and prepared base for a clean pour and to avoid stress cracks. Is he using rebar or wire in the slab? Use rebar if you can, shouldn't be much more and worth it. Also, is he tieing in the slab where it meets other existing concrete?

He is tying with rebar to the existing slab. I am unsure exactly what reinforcement he is using in general. I think it was wire for most of it with rebar around the skirt or something.

2. Have that electrician load test all that wiring and make sure it is good. Your lights will probably be LED, so you can have as many as you need on one circuit and split the run if you need multiple switches.
The outdoor water heater- sounds like a point of service unit i am guessing. If so, you will love it. But, make sure that you have a unit picked out and match the wiring to that unit. there are many variations, most are 220v and up to 50amp. Probably in the #4 to #6 stranded wire range. Check what you have, very difficult to redo after poor. You are in Austin, so the water above the slab shoudnt be a problem usually. But you may want a plug for a heater under your cabinets for frost protection.
The run for the plugs will need GFCI either at plugs or the breakers, i would do plugs. Most outdoor rated fridges will have a circuit breaker on the cord to plug in, make sure that plug is accessible in case it trips so you don't have to pull the whole fridge out to reset. Ask me how i know. Depending on your estimated loads for the plugs, you may need another run, think about that.

I'll look into some of this, but it's all in at this point and a lot of dirt already filled back in. So I'm hoping it really is all-good. For the heater, we were just going to go with a small unit for things like RVs. The most we'd ever really do with the heater is eventually set up an outdoor shower for a quick rinse after swimming.

3. The smoker config-6 feet is a too tall for a single wythe wall. You will need a double wythe wall with rebar extended from the slab through the cavity between wythes for support. But, that is doable.

Well here we go. I hadn't seen your comment when I doodled this, but I will show it regardless. See attached. I don't have too much room to go too thick so I am trying to go thin while still insulating and having a good chamber.

The firepit has two baffles. The bottom is the main one for wood or charcoal, and the top one helps combust gases created from burning wood. I also imagine for smaller stuff that I can just use the main chamber vertically with charcoal.

Can I lay the firebrick in that L-configuration so that they can basically double as rack mounts? That is my biggest concern.

[texman]

yes, using the L bricks like that should work fine. i think your plan on the drawing is good too. The cmus and the internal brick will work, but i think you need some rebar or wire for reinforcement that is set in mortar because of the height of the taller side. I didnt realize that you were enclosing it all with cmu until i saw the drawing.
Is your water heater electric or gas? I was concerned about the electrical because you said it "hummed" so you turned it off.

[Rocko Bonaparte]

yes, using the L bricks like that should work fine. i think your plan on the drawing is good too. The cmus and the internal brick will work, but i think you need some rebar or wire for reinforcement that is set in mortar because of the height of the taller side. I didnt realize that you were enclosing it all with cmu until i saw the drawing.

I wanted to do a firebrick one without the whole thing being exposed. My goal in all of that is to make a very lazy smoker. I am counting on the ceramics retaining heat for the protracted part of the cooking and the offset dual-baffle to cleanly flavor the meat in the particularly crucial early part of the cooking.

I don't really expect to get much feedback on the general efficacy of the design because, well, nobody seems to know. It's hard enough to get feedback on any kind of masonry smokers. Everybody just works on metal ones that they have to coddle constantly.

I originally figured I would use some rebar in the CMUs. I was anticipating using the half-wide ones but augmented with vertical rebar. Would that be okay? If I have to go full-block then I suppose I can make the front poke out; I don't have much room to recess it. I have to just account for the lost inches from going full-size. It will probably have to poke out anyways.

My concern was with making that one 6' vertical coarse of firebricks on the right-hand side of the drawing. With a line of L's like that going up across multiple parts of this, is that going to hold up? I have to emphasize I'm stacking them on their short side there.

Is your water heater electric or gas? I was concerned about the electrical because you said it "hummed" so you turned it off.

It is electrical. It's just a small heater. It has its own line for amperage, but it's only clocking in at 110VAC. To be fair, I'm saying this without having the thing in my possession, but everything I have read about them made a 110VAC unit sound sufficient.

The humming was because I was a Stupid McStupidface and wired one of my outlets to be shorted.

[texman]

Good on the electrical, glad that is good. I don't want to change your plans at all, but the wfo is as good as a smoker as it is a pizza oven. Steady heat at whatever you desire. You can make that smoker design work for sure. But, you said "lazy" and that is gonna be a lot of work. The dome is a lot by itself. You are essentially building two ovens. Just a thought. I tell you this because I had planned on a smoker as well in my build. I didn't have room and It was a blessing. I would have never used it. Everything I have smoked in the wfo has been awesome. Maybe you need a side burner and room to set your beer there?

[Rocko Bonaparte]

I was a little disappointed with the results of smoking in my first oven. It was quite efficient with residual heat, but I couldn't quite manage a good smoke flavor in all of that. I think I needed some method of starting a new fire that kept excess creosote and ash off of the meat but still gave it some smoke flavoring. I'd be interested in matters of technique there.

Heck, if you weren't on the opposite side of Texas I would figure we'd just have a beer and swap notes or something. It's basically us two in this thread right now.

I would be up to the idea of switching over because I'd rather have a cooktop surface like a grill.

[texman]

my smoking technique is really simple. build heat to desired level with oak to start, then load mesquite (or hickory or your preference) and get it going good from the leftover oak embers/charcoal. Then i place the door in increments until i see a good intake around the bottom and the smoke exhaust at the top. I think my tall chimney is the key and gives me a strong draw and keeps the smoke churning. i made a smoker door, but dont use it. I just use my insulated door and move it in and out to achieve the correct draw. If you find yourself in amarillo, for some strange reason, give me a shout. If you need pics of something let me know.

I think you should definitely add a grill and a side burner if you can. That way you can have steaks, burgers, make pizza sauce on the side burner, grill onions. Dont tell anybody here, but i even bought a pizza stone for the grill that i like and makes good pizza. I use it when i dont have the time to get the oven up to temp and want some pizza, or just need one or two pizzas. I even use the grill on low heat to keep the pizza warm after cooked in the wfo. i use that side burner all the time, saute veggies, just a pot of beans, Chile relleno after i cook them in the grill, side of rice, etc... So i think you will get more use of your outdoor kitchen if you add the things that you would have indoors. That is my theory anyway and it has worked out. When i started planning my kitchen, i knew i wanted the same things that i had indoors so i would not have to make endless trips back and forth for every little thing. So, I needed a cooktop=grill, burners for pots / pans=side burner, sink for dishes and water, Frig for Beer (and other stuff) , dishwasher, Spice racks, dry storage, drawers for all the utensils, knives and rack, island, and an oven. When i got the oven decision, i was thinking smoker and then i found Forno Bravo pompeii ovens and i was hooked and built the whole kitchen around the WFO.

The rest of the forum will be back once you get to the WFO.

[Rocko Bonaparte]

I talked things over with my wife and decided the smoker is indeed excessive. I really would make better use of a surface cooker of some kind. I need something that would handle me boiling wort for homebrew. This means a surface that can sustain ~60 pounds of weight in a pot, and can handle gas. I would love to be able to migrate between gas and charcoal at the same time. Any ideas?

In other news, we decided not to do strips of concrete for steps out to the main pad. Instead, we'll just go with a lot of gravel and a rock dry creek bed. This is a modification of the original idea my wife had. It should soften up the look of everything. The strips with the outdoor kitchen was going to be a bit ridiculous. I am amused how much we are landing back at our original thoughts, but with just some modifications. I originally wanted to just build around the existing slab, but it would have really closed in things. My wife wanted a dried creek bed, but it was awkward with so much grass around it.

[Rocko Bonaparte]

I decided due to all the gradient changes that the skirt for the slab is almost right on the ground around the oven, so this means I can extend it out a little bit and accommodate a larger oven. So I went out to extend the perimeter some more, and found out it was already 80 inches. Up from 72. Up from 64. I think I've done this two times already!

The goal was to do a 42" but if I'm dropping out the smoker, I want a little reserve capacity, so I may go back to 48". I can concede that anything larger is an encumbrance. I had this argument here before about not going so large, but I do know my ~36" was too small. I also suspect I'd end up using the same amount of wood in my 48" as my 36" because that old oven had a tall, shallow mouth for its size and was a refractory clay thing. So I'm probably already psychologically ready to feed a 48" oven. Maybe. I guess we'll see.