Structural Slab for new WFO

[mikku]

Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

I found some of the illusive components for rendering.

Pure silica sand (ka tsuna) can be purchased for $8.50/30 kg, compared to $24.00/ton-washed river sand. (typical component for plaster contractors).

Portland cement is just a commodity- everywhere available!

Hydrated lime- in its pure form (Shosekkai) must be special ordered at $16/25kg bag + $10 delivery fee.

Another type of lime- the component used in plasters for stucco, is a blend but also a commodity- sells for $16/25kg bag.

Reinforcing fiber- comes in a small vinyl bag--sells for $2.50/bag.

A premix-plaster containing lime/micro fibers/blend... top coating (maximum thickness) 2mm sells for $24/25kg bag.

What I am considering now is to do a scratch coat this coming week-but leaving a larger area toward the apex open.

To anchor the dome to the structural slab, I have stainless wires already cast into the slab. I am considering using a 1" grid stainless chicken wire, cut and twisted to conform to the shape and then additional stainless wires criss-crossing the dome connected to my embedded wires. Once the scratch coat gets applied, this net will be completely covered.

The scratch coat would probably be 4:1:1, using standard washed river sand, portland, lime and fibers.

I can load up on the fibers for crack resistance.

I am trying to avoid damages that could be caused by jolting. I.E. a forklift bumping into the slab in the moving process and the whole dome shifts on the firebrick!!! What a sad day that would be!

I am thinking that a partial render coat will protect what I have and an opening will leave an exit for water vapor.. I think vapors under pressure seek the weakest course- like a typical wall assembly.

Those are my thoughts, please pick them apart and point out faulty thinking--I am just trying to chart a course to get from one point to another without messing things up too much!

[mikku]

Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

Another "good advisor" stopped by to check on my build. While explaining my plastering plan to him, he told me that I am "over spec. ing"!

He said that I should concentrate on getting a good bond between the structural base and my render coat. Tapering it away from the dome -allowing for a thicker surrounding base. He felt that the fibers in conjunction with a strong bond to base is vastly superior than trying to wire mesh things together.

Further, he said--if the mesh is not enclosed in the render coat, it is useless!

This guy is a good friend and does not mince words. He has been around building for a very long time and I need to think over what he said carefully!
A little cheaper, less complicated, he is probably right!

Advice seems amazingly like a guy from OZ tropics, David s!

[mikku]

Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

Against all the good advice offered, I put the render coat on today.
However, I left the apex open, and area around the chimney.
The 4:1:1 mixture along with fiber reinforcement render was a pleasure to work with. I have seen guys with the tool that looks like a graduation hat--that they put plaster on...so I knocked a few pieces of wood together and a thin piece of plywood on top.. That mixture stuck to that board no matter which position (except upside down) without sliding! Also stuck to the face of the trowel without budging... Great mixture! But it spread like creamy peanut butter.

This first layer is only about 1/2" thick, but it should give the stability I am looking for! Reverse reasoning is: if this stuff sets up as quick as experienced today, then it has to be sucking water like crazy! Maybe it is good to apply it now..chemically sucking the water out!

Other thought-- "What is the (WORST) that can happen?"
next to last thought- "a person does not learn without making some mistakes!" so --it is a learning experience here...if something really crazy happens..then I have learned and do it differently on the second oven build!

lastly- "I do not accept something as a mistake -- unless it CANNOT be fixed!" --and I have the McGuiver mentality, that most things I can fix!

So the future will tell-- next step--chimney, sometype of oven entrance surround to close off insulation--the "Burn!!!!!!!!!!!"

[mikku]

Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

I don't know if there is a thread or not.. Haven't looked but there should be one on the dangers of some of the materials we are handling.

I am thinking that lime, glass fibers, portland cement, perlite, vermiculite,.....all have to be handled carefully--stay away from breathing any of it... Only thing not dangerous is possibly the water! And a great pizza or loaf of bread when the build is done!

[david s]

Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

Search "safety issues"

[mikku]

Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

Thanks, I did!

Read it from start to finish and added my 2 cents as usual!

That thread should be at the beginning of every page...so we do not forget!

The lime I purchased only had drawings of peoples' faces with masks, goggles, and hands wearing gloves.

Never saw those pictures on the bags of lime we used in the outhouse!

Probably MORE hazardous substances there than lime! But both requiring respirators at times!

[david s]

Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

If you have a concern about any material there is a MSDS (materials safety data sheet) on everything.Easy to look it up on the net.

[mikku]

Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

Is there an MSDS for my upside down render?

[mikku]

Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

Just did an msds search on "Plaster grade Lime"!

A real eye opener!

I think that the mixing of my render is going to be outdoors, at least until after the water is added. I was doing a light sweep up, then vacuum cleaning today.. Maybe sweeping not such a good idea! Vacuuming maybe better, but now thinking of really being careful with cleaning the filter... Also, some thoughts of diluted solution of vinegar to mop the floor surfaces..

Maybe a little more careful on how the mixing is performed and any materials not getting into the mix that may be floating around!

Thank you for the heads up!

Gets you thinking about the dangerous things you get used to having around.

As a kid, my father always had a box of dynamite upstairs the garage--its use was for blasting out stumps.. I remember that when it got old, it used to weap an amber colored fluid... sometimes would use cut-off pieces and blow them off over the 4th of July because possessing fireworks was illegal! Go figure?

Same goes for "carbide"... had that around to produce "acetylene" for welding torch.. Old type of carbide-acetylene-generator. We would put a couple of grains of carbide in the bottom of a Hershey chocolate can, make a little hole in the bottom to run a fuse into, spit into the can; put on the cover; light the fuse and run! Big Boom and do it over again! Crazy thing kids do --growing up in the northwoods--for entertainment!

Always had a dog around for company!

[david s]

Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

So you did the insulation about a week ago, then plastered over it. Seeing as it's indoors then very little water will have evaporated. Don't know how much vermiculite and perlite you used, but if it was about one 100 L bag of each then you will have about 70 L of water in that layer. A small amount of that will have been taken up by hydration with the cement, but you have still trapped a large amount of water there. You will find that the insulation layer will expand a bit on heating too. 70 L water makes 70,000 L steam. Ask yourself how much fire you would need to boil dry a 70 L drum of water? (That's why I advocate doing a thick layer of vermicrete dome insulation in layers with a week to dry in between). This might give you an idea of what you're up against. Folk who use blanket don't have to worry so much because if they use any vermicrete it is a thinner layer and their vermicrete won't get so suddenly heated because of the blanket between it and the hot dome.
leaving open an area at the top of the dome might be helpful, but it is the moisture around the base of the dome and under the floor that is the most difficult to remove. Steam will condense on the inside of your stucco and run down to the base where you have dammed it up. That reminds me, if you want to get good adhesion between the base of the outer shell and the supporting slab, cut some grooves into the supporting slab with an angle grinder fitted with a diamond blade. It's a good solution as often it is a place where a crack will develop.

[mikku]

Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

About 350 liters perlite, give or take, but no vermiculite. The ratio to water came out to be about 30% by volume perlite. A little more volume than you estimated but your statistics are dead on as usual. Portland cement--just a tad over a 25kg bag. I had a bag that had a few chunks in it--first batch, then I tossed it. Did not want more variables to screw up the mixture!

As mentioned, I did leave an area maybe 40 cm diameter open at apex, but nothing compared to total surface area. Am having thoughts on a permanent vent at top of dome once everything is dry and enclosed.

There has been a lot of chatter about completed WFO's that have been gotten wet and had to go through the drying process again. Maybe not the amount of water I am dealing with right now. I think that firebrick really absorbs water as well.. I noticed that when doing the few cuts I had.

(Maybe a good new thread-" Design considerations to prevent water migration into WFO igloo design")- Do's and Don'ts

Just a lot of things racing through my mind... builders with counters up to the WFO's where rain might hit-- a real entry point for water!

Today was the first day that the sun shone with any intensity and the temperatures were higher. When I can, I will open the garage doors and get some sun/wind action--but the drying will be much decreased because of surface area..

Need to get the chimney attached and some heat inside. That basically means a move outdoors. At least I have some protection in place for that move. Will have to see how things work out. Still have overnight freezing temperatures to deal with!

Thank you for your input, technical leads, and non-judgemental advice. This is just a work in progress--learn as I go.

[brickie in oz]

Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

Today was the first day that the sun shone with any intensity and the temperatures were higher.

Ill send you some we have plenty, we have it laying all over the ground doing nothing all I have to do is scoop it up in a bucket.

[mikku]

Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

Pictures, we need pictures.

Just getting back to you!

[mikku]

Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

It would be nice to have some warm sunny days.. those are just weeks away before spring sets in.. probably the best time of year, things start sprouting, cherry trees come into bloom and still several months from the rainy season that seems to never stop...June thru Late July sometimes daily rain...Then the skies clear and suffocating heat and humidity! So humid that your sweat does not want to evaporate at all...just soak in it! High temperatures and dry weather are easier to tolerate...sweating has a cooling affect.

The lazy days of summer are still far away.. just looking forward to not having to burn wood in the wood stove upstairs--but instead in a newly commissioned WFO consuming my hoard of dry oak!

Best thing about right now...no insects!

[mikku]

Re: Structural Slab for new WFO

After tossing around the drying, and firing methods; I came up with my solution based on what I have on hand.

A normal heating device used here is called a "fan heater". (FON-HEE-TAH in Japanese). It is fueled by a high grade of kerosene (supposed to not stink too much during use), but requires windows to be opened regularly to allow fresh air in... That has always been a counter-productive issue with me... but??? Old houses here do not need windows to be open--because there is plenty of fresh air leaking in everywhere and very little insulation.

The device has a thermostat for air temperature, and an automatic shut down program where it turns off every three hours.. if left unattended or as a reminder to allow fresh air in.

The blast of air that this little unit produces is pretty hot, but not nearly as hot as heat beads, I hope that it will eventually heat the refractory warm enough to start forcing the water out.

There are a couple of photos of the little heater, its performance data label and how it is set near the oven.

The thing consumes 1/3 liter kerosene per hour of operation. That is more than my total heating system uses to heat 1500sf on a daily basis. But my house is very well insulated--only using 5.5 liters/day last month.

I will run this for a few days to see how the drying goes. It will give me some time to get my chimney, arrange for a forklift and some other things for the following week. It will only heat the dome to the initial temperatures of firing--everything else will have to be done with an alternative fuel type.

I can tell right away--I have to keep some windows cracked all the time. Even though it is burning clean, it is dumping gasses in the air giving me a headache!