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  • #76
    Re: High Heat Mortar Primer

    Just to throw another option out there, if one has access to "Glass block mortar" there is a very easy way. Glass block mortar is generally:
    Code:
    1 part portland
    1 part lime
    4 part sand
    If you had a source for pre-mixed glass block mortar, and you wanted:
    Code:
    1 part portland
    1 part lime
    4 part sand
    2 part fireclay
    Then you would mix three parts of the glass block mortar with one part of fireclay:
    Code:
    3 part glass block mortar (pre-mixed)
    1 part fireclay

    There was previous discussion regarding the potential for using Type-N pre-mixed mortar; I would caution anyone considering that option to be aware that the ratio of sand in Type-N is 6 parts to one part each portland and lime.

    Finally, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this, "parts" are very specifically measured by volume not weight. My baker's head wants badly to weigh parts rather than measure their volume which would lead to a major error as portland weighs more than twice what lime does per volume.

    arri

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    • #77
      Re: High Heat Mortar Primer

      Has anyone else tried the "calcium aluminoslicate" home brew ? I use it everyday in my countertops as a additive so have access to it so cost is negligible .. Does it make a better refractory mortar then the portland brew?

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      • #78
        Re: High Heat Mortar Primer

        Asking same unanswered question as tdibratt '' instead of taking portland cement and adding lime,could I use Masonry Cement" or pre-mixed mortar sand ? Thank you.

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        • #79
          Re: High Heat Mortar Primer

          Originally posted by DTHERR View Post
          Has anyone else tried the "calcium aluminoslicate" home brew ? I use it everyday in my countertops as a additive so have access to it so cost is negligible .. Does it make a better refractory mortar then the portland brew?
          Using calcium aluminate cement in the home brew recipe will give you a mortar with an extremely short pot life. The lime acts as an accelerant and your brew will start to go off almost as soon as you've mixed it. Better off to leave out the lime. Calcium aluminate cement is also very temperature dependent. In hot weather you need to use chilled water. Wash out your barrow between batches too as that will also avoid accelerating the next batch.
          Last edited by david s; 09-23-2013, 03:40 PM.
          Kindled with zeal and fired with passion.

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          • #80
            Re: High Heat Mortar Primer

            Originally posted by neophyte View Post
            pre-mixed mortar sand ?
            I have only ever used the pre mixed junk once, it was for a small patch up job and I didnt want to go to all the trouble of sourcing and mixing mortar.

            In all my years of bricklaying maybe 30 I lost count, but more that 25, I have never struggled with mortar until I used pre mix.

            What an abomination on man kind.
            The English language was invented by people who couldnt spell.

            My Build.

            Books.

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            • #81
              Re: High Heat Mortar Primer

              Originally posted by brickie in oz View Post
              I have only ever used the pre mixed junk once, it was for a small patch up job and I didnt want to go to all the trouble of sourcing and mixing mortar.

              In all my years of bricklaying maybe 30 I lost count, but more that 25, I have never struggled with mortar until I used pre mix.

              What an abomination on man kind.
              Brickie, pre mixed mortar is now the newest thing for masonry construction. Being a mason for 32 yrs. I have learned to live with it. It doesn't have anywhere the workable aspects of a sand pile, a skid each of lime and portland cement. For standard mortar for brickwork you could not beat 32 shovels of sand and a bag each of lime and cement. Hence type "n". Boy could a guy work with that mortar. Today's mortar that comes out of silos acts like grout, i.e. has not plasticity. Mortars have gotten stronger so now we need control joints in brick veneers ever 25 feet and at every corner. Old buildings in my area never had CJS because the mortar was meant to give a little bit. Just my 2 cents about today's mortars. So as far as making my own home brew for less money or buying something in a pail or bag that is premixed and costs a lot more you can figure which way I am going. You bet I will mix my own and make it so I can work with it. Just thought I would give some thought.

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              • #82
                Re: High Heat Mortar Primer

                On "oldie but goodie" topic.

                1) I'm curious if the order of mixing the ingredients matters, and if so why? (I just want to learn a little more about the chemistry or physics or practicalities of it.)

                I would have thought to mix the finest-grain ingredients together first (Portland cement, fireclay, and lime), and only after they are mixed then mix in sand. Sort of like sieving together the flour and baking-powder first, in a cake mix. But the list of ingredients (1:3:1:1, as in 1 part Portland cement, 3 parts sand, 1 part lime, 1 part fire clay) and what I've read elsewhere suggests mixing the sand and cement together first, and then adding the lime, and the fireclay last.

                2) Sand: how "fine" is fine-grain? Let's talk mesh (size of grains). Is #50 fine enough? Is #80 better, or is it too fine? #120? The latter seems like powder, to me. It is available where I live down to #400 mesh, which is a very fine dust like kaolin powder; even finer particles are available for specialized purposes. ("Mesh" refers to the size of the opening the grains will fit through, when sieving.)

                3) Also, how much water to add? This seems to be left out of the recipe mixes. Perhaps the various videos or pics tell this better than words, to get the right consistency. I used to think that the less water the better (within reason) for strength, as this is what I learned using Quikrete in driveways (non-refractory application, of course!) -- too much water weakens it. But some experimentation quickly revealed that too little water is also a problem in making refractory mortar, the mix never really adheres to itself, doesn't hydrate/cure enough or right, and is very weak and crumbly. (Even if one could form a ball that held together after pressing it in your hands, that wasn't wet enough -- it needed more water.) Like Goldilocks and porridge, I guess it has to be "just right": well-mixed, not to dry and not to wet.

                If the order of mixing isn't important, would it help to mix the cement/lime/fireclay first, then (separately) add water to the sand and then mix the wet sand with the dry ingredients, to help spread the moisture around?

                Just brainstorming, to learn from the pros on here. :-) Many thanks to those who really know, for sharing your insights here!)

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                • #83
                  Re: High Heat Mortar Primer

                  Hi guys. I have a query on what people have found best to work with.
                  I have found a ready mixed high temp cement from a wood burning oven specialist. He also sells dry cement to just be mixed with water. Both rated to 1600.
                  However it says that it should be applied between 2-5mm.
                  What have people found best to use?
                  The lime, fireclay, cement and sand mix or these specialist high temp cements?
                  I'm in really split minds and am very unsure which way to go?
                  I'm building my dome with old red clay bricks.
                  Interested to hear people's reaponses and how you guys have done it?

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                  • #84
                    Re: High Heat Mortar Primer

                    This question has been answered dozens of times, several in this thread. Search around a bit.

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                    • #85
                      Re: High Heat Mortar Primer

                      Originally posted by FrankHawkins View Post
                      Hi guys. I have a query on what people have found best to work with.
                      I have found a ready mixed high temp cement from a wood burning oven specialist. He also sells dry cement to just be mixed with water. Both rated to 1600.
                      However it says that it should be applied between 2-5mm.
                      What have people found best to use?
                      The lime, fireclay, cement and sand mix or these specialist high temp cements?
                      I'm in really split minds and am very unsure which way to go?
                      I'm building my dome with old red clay bricks.
                      Interested to hear people's reaponses and how you guys have done it?
                      Don't waste your money on high temp mortar if you are using red clay brick. You should be using medium grade firebrick, not a clay brick. You can but for an oven that lasts use firebrick. Do some research on the proper materials to use.

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                      • #86
                        Re: High Heat Mortar Primer

                        Don't waste your money on high temp mortar
                        +1

                        Homebrew all the way.

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                        • #87
                          Re: High Heat Mortar Primer

                          Originally posted by Campmaki View Post
                          for an oven that lasts use firebrick.
                          Campmaki, What do you mean for an oven that lasts? What time frame are you referring?

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                          • #88
                            Re: High Heat Mortar Primer

                            Also interested to hear what time scale your referring to. I can't afford firebricks so had to use the old red clays that I have. I've read in many places that they are a fine alternative to fire bricks. Seems to be mixed views about them. The cost has mounted up so much more than I thoughf when I started this project I have no option other the the old red clays so really hoping that they hold up to the job! Lol

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                            • #89
                              Re: High Heat Mortar Primer

                              G'day
                              If at all possible use firebrick for the hearth, they'll handle the heat better. If not commons ar'nt twice there width to there length to allow for a mortar gape. Don't use herringbone pattern the gapes will be too big. Lay the floor at 45 degrees to the entrance and you'll be right
                              Regards dave
                              Measure twice
                              Cut once
                              Fit in position with largest hammer

                              My Build
                              http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f51/...ild-14444.html
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                              http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f28/...ock-17190.html

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                              • #90
                                Re: High Heat Mortar Primer

                                Hi there,

                                I am building my pizza oven at present and just planning the Dome structure.

                                I purchased Dense Castable (up to 1400c temp), which the supplier advised to simply mix with water to a peanut butter consistency (3 x 25kg bags).

                                He advised to cover my sand formed dome with wet paper and then to cover this with the castable mix.

                                I am then going to create layers of fireclay mortar, then fireclay with wood shavings and an outer layer of fireclay mortar with perlite added.

                                For the mortar, I will follow the 1:3:1:1 ratios.

                                My question is, will the castable mix hold the weight of the clay which will be create the walls of 20cm thickness?

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