JayMez and the Oven Design

[JayMez]

I am in the design stage of things. I hope to start a build very soon. I have made a design that I will display here. Let me know what you think.

So I've been watching this forum for a while and to start, I wanted to make a temporary oven. But I find myself lazy where really I should be doing a lot to make a permanent oven that suits me just as well. So I have been lucky in a lot of things I've seen on here that have helped me with my design. Too many things to list in fact ,so I will skip that.


ok first look



ok so this is one google sketchup I've seen a few use it for other things. I do not like the idea of soldiered brick because according to Auroville Earth Institute, training courses, workshops on Vaults, Arches, Domes(VAD), stabilized rammed earth walls, compressed earth blocks, vaulted structures, compressed stabilised earth blocks, rammed earth. ... the oven is probably weeker with them there.From my point of view the oven needs all the structural value it can get because of it's flexing needs and less structural support from the mortar. I may be mistaken but either way I like structural integrity.

The second thing you may notice about ths picture is that it has these red bricks. These are to control the gaps left by the unavoidable geometry of the situation. Need I say more just let me know.

Ok second pic



This is a 42 inch oven. I am planning to use a 1 inch brick despite the amount of cutting involved.I feel it will make the build better. I will of course be experimenting properly to make certain that my desgn is possible and I hope I can get the brick that short. This would make the mortar gaps signifigantly smaller and easier to work with I hope.

You may not have noticed that there is a small gap in the bricks making a joint . That is because it is hard to see in the second picture and if you look at the first it's barely visable.

SO on to the third picture where hopefully much more can be seen


As I hope you can see there are blue bricks representing the bricks that need to be cut to width because of the red starting points. And also the red,now purple bricks representing the quarter pass in the chain.

In this picture one can see much more clearly the 1/16" gap of a mortar joint I have left. I hope to use a good refractory mix like refmix or something else but I do need guidance here. If the gap and or the brick are too small this oven is easily redesigned.

[JayMez]

Re: JayMez and the Oven Design

This is a comparison of the 2 brick



the large brick is a half brick measuring 4.5"x4.5"x2.5" the Brick I intend to use will seperate the firebrick into 9 instead of 2 I hope. Probably less than that due to the cut itself.


The Arch door opening I'm planning on is 2 feet exactly it takes up a further 2 inches that I want to cast to make the archway itself.





I would like to cast this using a foam form. I work for my father who owns a polystyrene business and I can use a nice form to cast with.



I want to cast on this yellow highlighted form. The arch will be 2" thick like I said and maybe thicker that I think about it now. If thats not thick enough I should surely like to know. I will make sure to make a door pluging flange in the cast for the door to sit up against

The Vent will be accounted for last. I'm not sure what would be best here. The goal is to allow ventilation and not burn so I will probably use brick of some kind. I think firebrick or some other kind of brick would do. I could also cast it seperately.

So this is basically as far as I have gotten.

If you see any problems it would be awfully kind of you to share that thought with me ...so please do.

I will wait to get sufficient feedback Before I move on so please feel free to provide me with your thoughts. Thanks


, James

[JayMez]

Re: JayMez and the Oven Design

I left one or 2 things out. Frstly if these pictures are too big I will replace them with smaller ones. Secondly That larger brick is 2.5"x4.5"x4.5" . The Brick I wish to cut would be one firebrick into 6 or 7 usable pieces,9 theoretically. This would measure 4.5"x2.5"x1". The Orange dome in the backround is one I made using no gaps and I felt like an idiot. so let me know if you want to see that one. It is pretty if nothng else.

[JayMez]

Re: JayMez and the Oven Design

ok so I've changed a few things sorry about the obnoxiously large pictures .I have the feeling you all probably hate that. In any case take a look and let me know. what you think. So far the only regret that keeps haunting me is the idea of cutting that much brick away into dust. I am open to use hlaf bricks. I need to know what all of you think it would be Hghly appreciated. Thanks again.

[turkey]

Re: JayMez and the Oven Design

I think the pictures are awsome, but to try and actually stick to such a precise plan might be harder than its worth, I think alot of builds become an evolution so a good plan to start is great, but flexibility will be your best friend going forward.

also the thin bricks really will add to the total time, have you calculated how many bricks are going to be in your dome? if you did that you could try to guess how many man hours to build it, I have a feeling it will be an awful lot.

are they halved thin bricks or are you planning on just using them whole? have you costed this many bricks up yet?

you could use the dust (grog) from cutting the bricks and mix it with fireclay or your mortor you use and pack it round the back of the bricks to fill and of the gaps and increase the thermal mass which I assume is already going to be very high looking at your plans.

This oven will take a good while to heat but hold that (subject to insulation) for quite a while, is it mainly for pizza or bread?

[JayMez]

Re: JayMez and the Oven Design

Sketchup might make it look complicated, but the idea is to just set up those starting points to control the gap of the chains of brick. I dont think I have anything overly precise to the point where I can't change the design, if, and when I need to. I think being flexible is good advice all the same.

As far as a time frame goes, I will be working on it in regular intervals and I will schedule as I go making certain that ,if I do change my plans around slightly as I go, I will have a good idea and focus on what I'm doing. Not working with my mind always on other things as yoda might say.

I estimate 544 to 600 cut bricks realizing 65 regular brick tops . That should be enough for the dome.

I am thinking about casting the top of the Dome because towards the top I start a smaller brick and I dont want to have to cut too many of those. Having said that casting would decrees the number of brick above.

The bricks themselves will be cut along the 9 inch length to make 7 or 8 regular pieces and then an odd piece to be used in spacing.

The thickness of the thermal mass all together is going to be the same as the FB pompeii plans provided and the same as a regular halved brick thickness. 4.5"


I don't know what mortar I will use but from what the FB plans say and from what I have read here I'd rather try to get ahold of some refractory mortar before I make a homebrew. Simply for the sake of quality of the build. If thats just not true anymore I don't mind making my own I just want to be sure I'm doing the best with what I know.

The grog will be used if I need it. I dont know if its a good Idea to add it to a premixed dry refractory. I think I read something in a recent post of it being used under the floor mixed or used without some kind of fine sand.


The only thing I have thought so far to change is the gap between the Bricks. Making it larger will signifigantly decrease the amount of bricks I will need to use.

This is primarily for pizza.


I will let you know when I have priced the bricks and what I may change. so thanks

[JayMez]

Re: JayMez and the Oven Design

That brick number estimate seems off. I will probably end up buying 100 and then seeing where I get with those.

[fxpose]

Re: JayMez and the Oven Design

I am thinking about casting the top of the Dome because towards the top I start a smaller brick and I dont want to have to cut too many of those. Having said that casting would decrees the number of brick above.

But using castable refractory to cast the top of the dome will cost you more in materials.
You will be making a zillion cuts to begin with anyway. What's a few extra cuts for the upper courses? You'll be in the right gear.
Good luck with your project!

George

[JayMez]

Re: JayMez and the Oven Design

I think you're right there. I had that thought at first but when I think of casting I keep thinking of the doorway and how that doesnt have to necessarily be cast in refractory and so that is something I always easily forget. I Think I will just use brick for everything. Possibly not the flu. The supplier I'm hoping to get brick from manufactured here http://www.mtsavage.com/PDF/Section%...20Products.pdf also sells cylinder pipe flu liners. seen here POTOMAC VALLEY BRICK Built On a Foundation of Service under fire brick, flu linings and chimney caps.

Thanks

[JayMez]

Re: JayMez and the Oven Design

I have inquired so if I get a response I'm thinking I will ask if they can send me a sample of 2 or more of these. http://www.mtsavage.com/PDF/Section%...20Products.pdf

[Jon in Albany]

Re: JayMez and the Oven Design

Just to let you know, in case you were worried, you are not alone in this kind of sketch work. I've been doing it for a few weeks too. I find it interesting to look at the evolution of my sketches.

I have a couple of comments, but please take them with a grain of salt: the only oven building experience I have is reading threads here. With that in mind, here are some thoughts.

I'm not sure you want all the cut blue bricks in the same vertical line. I would think separating them would be stronger.

Also, If the cut blue bricks are close to the entrance, you will not see them when you look into the oven. The way it is currently drawn gives you a seam in the back right.

The running bond floor will certainly work, but people seem to prefer the herringbone pattern.

I think connecting the cast arch to the dome could be tricky. But you might be going to all brick now.

All the best,
Jon

[JayMez]

Re: JayMez and the Oven Design

I could definatley stagger them. If anything it would individualize the odd spot more. The archway will probably be done with halved brick. I will probably just cut them to fit the form of the archway. For each chain that meets the opening I will cut those to form fit as well.

whenever I get a quote on local materials I will start my build.

Thanks for the input

[turkey]

Re: JayMez and the Oven Design

The running bond floor will certainly work, but people seem to prefer the herringbone pattern.

Indeed, and I think the reason for the herringbone is when you slide the peel along the floor it will not hit a joint perpendicular to the movement, all of the joints would be at 45 degrees to the movement, this will allow smoother movement and probably minimise the chance of catching and chipping a floor brick.

[Dino_Pizza]

Re: JayMez and the Oven Design

I agree, herringbone is easy to do, looks interesting and I can attest to the odd edge that sticks up here and there and my peel and pans slide right over.

Also, I was just about to discourage you from cutting a brick into so many little pieces. That's a lot more cuts, a lot more $25-$100 diamond blades and bricks dust/clay caught in the wet-saw's water pan is a pain to wash out every day. It's also harder to offset the vertical joints to avoid longer cracks.

HOWEVER, that said, for a 42" oven using half bricks, we (most) end up going to 3rds anyway by the 4th course and soon after near the top, 4ths, 5ths and more to close the thing up. So cutting whole fire brick into smaller pieces early on is only a little more work. But still, although I certainly can appreciate the look of tiny brick pieces (it would be so cool ) After you finish it, you don't see it that much in your oven. IMO just using 3rds for the whole thing (ok 4ths) would get you there too without much more work.

Also, I really like how you plan on going without a tall soldier. You are correct, it is a week spot (though certainly not a real issue).

Also remember: You want your oven to be made of firebrick with as little of mortar as needed to hold it (ideally). Smaller bricks will help you get a tighter fit if done well but so will good taper cuts (hopefully better than mine ). I used FB's Refmix for 70% of my oven and I love it...really strong stuff.

Great job on your sketchup and it's admirable you are planing this out so well. It will be a better build for all thought and work.

-Dino

[JayMez]

Re: JayMez and the Oven Design

The Brick texture in sketchup is just to show how that is the floor brick and not a piece of FB board or something. I plan to do a herringbone pattern. I did not recieve a response via email. However today I drove over there as the place is right by where I work. I didnt get a full spec on anything other than the fact that a split fire brick would cost me $1.43/brick . I am now the happy owner of a free sample of one . I am thinking I will cut the split brick as it is 1 1/4" and the dimension originally planned is 1"x2.5x4.5". The Dimension now would be 1 1/4"x 2 1/2"x 4 3/8" . I am going to see if its viable to split this block along 3 lines in the block to get 3 regular blocks and one 1 and 1/4" x1 1/4" block for the top of the dome.

Dino I appreciate your input and I'd like to know is the refmix still available? I don't see it in the FB store. I am generally not informed on where I might get some. Either way I need a choice of mortar.



My father was telling me that him and his father had built a furnace once and that the way they split the brick was to weld a piece of metel sticking up off a platform like seen above. So I am going to be experimenting a little with my free brick. In the mean time make of this what you will.

Thanks so far for your input