Lip on dome bricks using a tramell

[TEDFB]

Hi guys
Trusting that you are all doing fine
Just letting you know the pizza oven is coming on well, although quite interesting joining the dome and the arch, but seem to be managing at the moment.
Have a great day

[TEDFB]

OK, I trust that you are all good well
I have obviously not worked on the oven all the time, what with crazy high temperatures and I have had work to do on the property.
Anyway I will most likely complete the dome this week.
What I would like to know from you guys if you don't mind, is how long do I leave the oven to stand before curing it.
I also believe that I must cure it before I insulate it, in case of any problems. Would this mean I would have to then cure it with a few more fires to dry out the insulating layers?
I am going to put an insulating fibre blanket over the dome and then a vermiculite plaster before the final plaster layer.
Is the vermiculite mix the same as below the oven floor. 5 to 1 cement.

[david s]

There is confusion created with the word “curing” and therefore I try to avoid it. The term as applied to concretes and mortars refers to the hydration process in which a chemical change takes place including water. This is referred to as damp curing and why it is important to hold moisture in while this takes place. If a mix contains OPC, depending on temperature the hydration process will achieve sufficient strength in a week, but 28 damp days is the standard. If using CAC the reaction is faster, again temperature dependant, Specs say 24 hrs, I usually give it 48 to be sure)
Once the damp curing is done that excess free water should be removed, if building an oven, or it can cause catastrophic problems of steam spalling.. Curing by heat means taking the material to a temperature where other chemical changes occur. This does not happen until the temperature exceeds 550C which is outside our service temperature range. So in the case of driving off mechanical water it is more properly referred to as "drying fires".
Do not do these fires in an uninsulated oven. There have been numerous reports of ovens cracking when this has been performed. The problem is thermal shock and occurs when the inside temperature face is far higher than the outside face. The big difference in temperature leads to a big difference in thermal expansion. By insulating the outside it gives the material a chance to even out the temperature difference. Perhaps you could do the curing fires with just one layer of blanket. That way it’s easy to remove and inspect.
So generally the safe procedure is a week of damp curing, followed by insulating the exterior, followed by 7 fires in 7 days getting progressively bigger and longer as well as trying to avoid too much flame impingement on the dome.

[UtahBeehiver]

David, as usual, gives sage as well as good technical info. This is the point where builders fire the ovens to fast and too hot risking the cracking of the dome. The turtle win the raise on this phase of the build. You can use briquettes or heat beads for the first few fires, gets you about 200 F and you can cook a dutch oven while you are at it. When you use wood, one extra piece of wood can really spike the temp quickly so don't over load. David sometimes places plastic over the insulation to watch of condensation formation which indicates water still exist in the build. If you see steam, you are firing too hot.

[rsandler]

Another tool for drying out your oven after damp curing is to put a big halogen light in the oven. If you can find a strong enough light, and especially if you have at least a rudimentary door, you can get the bricks warm enough to evaporate off a lot of moisture if you're patient. On my second oven, I had a big halogen work light, and with the CF blanket insulation on and my insulated door around the cord, managed to get the interior above 100C after 24-48 hours. Can never know the alternative, but I think that's probably why I didn't end up with cracks despite my eventual drying fires getting away from me and raising the temperature faster and sooner than intended.

[Giovanni Rossi]

I'm glad David summarized this for you. While researching this Forum for my build I keyed in on the distinction and importance of chemical curing and drying in this application and tried to be careful when documenting in my build thread.

Just to capture your last question...this site typically recommends the vermicrete for dome insulation be 10:1. You need the stronger 5:1 for the floor because of the need to support the weight of the oven.
I believe David often advocates making a more workable product by using a 50/50 mixture of fine vermiculite and medium perlite if you have access or a fine/med mix of either product alone.

You can check out my build as I did something a little different. I used a build kit that used a 2" layer of 8:1 silicone coated pericrete (not available in the US as far as I know). But, I customized it by adding more blanket insulation so, with the greater diameter and resulting larger volumes required, I was going to run out of perlite. My solution was to do 3 layers: 8:1 then 5:1 then 0:1 thinking I would have greater insulating properties closer to the dome and increasing strength as I moved outward. I'll never know if this was a good solution, but it made sense to me at the time. The insulation of my pericrete layers probably didn't add much to 4 inches of blanket, but I believe I got a sufficiently hard shell on the dome.

[TEDFB]

Thanks so much guys for the valued input
I really appreciate it, have a great day

[TEDFB]

Well I finally finished the dome, hopefully I can get the photo downloaded.
Many thanks to all who have given me such sound advice, I am sure it would have been a lot more problematic were it not for you guys.
I will be starting with the chimney, now I see that I will probably run out of refractory cement before I finish it, I assume that standard Portland cement and mortar would work for that, and if so what mixture would be best.
Kindest regards to all
The attachment won't download so I will send it separately

[TEDFB]

I cropped the photo to bring it into specs

[rsandler]

Nicely done--looks great!

Portland cement-based mortar should be fine for your chimney--you could add lime and fireclay to do the full "homebrew" refractory mortar, but likely for the transition to your flue, even plain mortar would be fine. Homebrew refractory is 3:1:1:1 sandortland:lime:fireclay by volume. If you don't have (or want to use) lime or fireclay, just skip those parts (standard brick mortar being 3:1 sand and portland cement).

You may have this in mind, but just want to flag that to get proper draw, the flue for a 36"/90cm diameter oven needs to be at least a 6"/15cm diameter round, or equivalent cross-sectional area (~28 square inches/180cm^2). Based on brick widths, looks like your opening right now is around 4.5" x 13.5", which is plenty, but be careful as you narrow it to meet the flue that you don't shrink it too much.

[TEDFB]

Good morning,
Trusting that you are all doing great
Please could I have some advice on the oven door,
Is it better for me to use aluminium or stainless steel for the interior door of the pizza oven.
Thank you
Best regards

[rsandler]

Aluminum conducts heat better than stainless steel, so stainless is preferred. Mild steel also works; I believe is has higher conductivity than stainless, but still much better than aluminum, and while technically it will corrode over time with heat, the corrosion is minor.

Or you can take my approach on my second oven and wrap some insulation in Nomex felt as a door https://community.fornobravo.com/for...656#post455656

[TEDFB]

Thanks rsandler,
Wow that "show me your door" thread has a heap of interesting information, but makes me feel like I need to go back to college or something.
Any way I have some homework and material scrounging to do.
Thanks so much for your help

[david s]

Aluminum conducts heat better than stainless steel, so stainless is preferred. Mild steel also works; I believe is has higher conductivity than stainless, but still much better than aluminum, and while technically it will corrode over time with heat, the corrosion is minor.

Or you can take my approach on my second oven and wrap some insulation in Nomex felt as a door https://community.fornobravo.com/for...656#post455656

Stainless warps under heat. The thinner is is the greater the problem. I like a timber door because it looks traditional and is not particularly conductive. But it does require an insulation panel to prevent charring.

[TEDFB]

Hey guys, hope you are all doing great.
Been very slow with the oven, other problems and maintenance on the property all wanting my attention.
I managed to get to the city and picked up some second hand 150mm (6") stainless flue pipes, I also needed 2 X 45 degree bends which I had to purchase new. Has anyone had experience in painting stainless.? The method and type of paint would help me a lot, remembering that this is all outside.