Rustic Primitive Materials

[WJW]

Re: Rustic Primitive Materials

I have been told (but have no practical experience) that vault shaped ovens draw air better if they are longer than they are wide. I honestly don't know why this would be in light of the fact that pompeii styles draw perfectly well, yet they are not longer than wide. So maybe someone with some hands on experience can chime in.

The proportion between door height and vault interior is 63%...but I think you can get away with a few percentage points (say five) on either side of that and still do fine.

If you are doing a vault, I'd take a look at Tscarbouroughs build. He offset his door to one side a bit to allow a more defined area for the fire, with a straighter shot to the cooking area. I don't know that it's a huge big deal, but I copied his idea and really like it. The pic below shows it on my build.




BTW, gotta love the roasted salmon. I go to Alaska every year and come back with a ton of reds, kings (Chinnook), and silvers (coho). Good stuff. (Edit: By "ton" I mean a lot. Not an actual ton. :-) )

[Laurentius]

Re: Rustic Primitive Materials

Hi Annie,

This is a question for Brickie or Dave. For some reason, I think (Squares), are not recommended, but I maybe wrong.

[Laurentius]

Re: Rustic Primitive Materials

Man, you have got some nerves! A person who loves swamp cockroaches, calls sushi poison, WTF! Its alright, what would you like to have from the Land of the Rising Sun and Laurentius? I really think you should travel four you die, boy. Go to "Hot lanta", I'm from Athens and I know your parts well! By the way, I'm older than, air. Annie, I apologize too.

[Gulf]

Re: Rustic Primitive Materials

Sorry Annie M. for the hijack,

Hehehhehehhehe. Another answer would be, "up to now, or give me time". I think I'm older than you, in years on earth, otherwise you've got it right! Can you send me a load of crawdaddies, I'm hankering for something good.

You may be older than me. I could not find your age on your "about me" stats. But, if you are, then you can claim the staus of "older than dirt"

I would love to send you some "mud bugs". However, we purge, and "boil" them alive. That usually means eating them the same day or at least the next as they have been caught. Given the distance I don't think that you would like a crawfish with a belly full of swamp mud. But, I think that there is the possibilty of crawfish tails or maybe a few servings of crawfish etouffee (et tu fe). These could be sent frozen. I think that a trade could be worked out for something good from your area. But, please! none of that poison sushi stuff

[Laurentius]

Re: Rustic Primitive Materials

Hehehhehehhehe. Another answer would be, "up to now, or give me time". I think I'm older than you, in years on earth, otherwise you've got it right! Can you send me a load of crawdaddies, I'm hankering for something good.

[Gulf]

Re: Rustic Primitive Materials

Hi Gulf,

You don't have to live, where you were born, otherwise earth wouldn't be as quirky as it is. "Go West Young Man" or is it Old -art?

Young Fart,
I'm to dmn old to move . It is kind of like this with many of the "old farts" from my neck of the woods. If you ask one of us "have you lived there all of your life"? Most of us would answer, "Well,........ not yet"

[Laurentius]

Re: Rustic Primitive Materials

Me thinks that I was born in the wrong part of the U.S. of A.

Hi Gulf,

You don't have to live, where you were born, otherwise earth wouldn't be as quirky as it is. "Go West Young Man" or is it Old -art?

[Gulf]

Re: Rustic Primitive Materials

.... also people are always dropping off big fresh salmon...nice to slow roast....

Me thinks that I was born in the wrong part of the U.S. of A.

[Tscarborough]

Re: Rustic Primitive Materials

There are several ways to do it. Are you building round or barrel?

[Laurentius]

Re: Rustic Primitive Materials

Hi Annie,

Brunelleschi, is constructing cess pools to recover methane as a fuel.

[david s]

Re: Rustic Primitive Materials

Annie,

Back to your question about the first course of bricks, I really think it is a misconception that the outer area of the oven can't be used if you start the curve of the oven with the first course.
The curve is not that great and you will find that the sides of your pans and dishes will still fit right up the the edge.
The other thing is if you start with a full brick soldier course you will need to be carefull of the outward thrust, then when you start with the half bricks that the joins don't line up with joins of the first course. I hope that makes sence to you, it is getting late here.

For a hemisphere this is true, but with a low dome that has a radius larger than half the diameter, then the angle at the base is way less than 90degrees. The problem is also exacerbated if the oven is small. Eg you can't squeeze a bread tin loaf close to the oven edge.

[WJW]

Re: Rustic Primitive Materials

Tom... I think we are talking past each other. Barrel vaults can have fire on the side. I think we agree on that point.


Edit: Looking around I see that a lot of barrel vault guys apparently do fires on the side. Didn't realize that.

Bill

[Derkp]

Re: Rustic Primitive Materials

I agree, fire on the side with offset to make turning, retreiving easier.

[Tscarborough]

Re: Rustic Primitive Materials

You are correct that the AS ovens have too much mass for normal residential use, and also correct that a barrel vault does not need to have the excess mass to operate well, and even cook multiple batches of bread. I differ with you on the fire in the back, even with my small barrel (22Wx36D), I keep the fire on the left and can cook 2 16" pizzas at once (although I usually only make one at a time). My door is offset a couple inches to the right, that is the only aberration from a normal barrel vault.

[WJW]

Re: Rustic Primitive Materials

Thanks for the nice words Annie.

As you can see I have not quite finished my oven. Still need to do some kind of counter top. Either some type of travertine tiles or maybe just a dyed , "pour in place" concrete counter top. The stuff in the pictures are bunch of red brick pavers from our old patio acting as a temporary counter top. I've been cooking so much with it I haven't gotten around to finishing the counter.

I now understand your comments about perimeter. If I had a small pompeii style I would definitely want to stand the first chain of bricks on end. This is referred to as a "soldier" or "sailor" course (depending on whether the bricks have the narrow side facing the oven, or the wide side.)

As far as Karangi dude's thoughts about a barrel vault style, I concur. A bit of a primer here....Most people assume that a barrel vault is the same thing as an Allen Scott style. This is not correct.

And most people will also say (correctly) that an Allen Scott style is not optimized for cooking pizzas. But saying an Allen Scott style is not optimized for cooking pizzas is not the same as saying a barrel vault is not optomized for pizza.

"Barrel Vault" only refers to the shape of the oven. While Allen Scott style ovens are barrel vault shaped, that is not what makes them less than perfect for a pizza oven. Allen Scott ovens are optimized for cooking large amounts of bread. I mean LARGE amounts from a single firing. In order to do that they must have huge amounts of thermal mass (i.e. masonry "cladding" stuck to the outside of the firebricks.). Some Allen Scott ovens will have as much as 12 inches of concrete layered on the firebricks...above and below. Then there will be insulation around all of that masonry.

The advantage to that is that, once all that masonry is good and hot, it STAYS good and hot. For a long time. That style of oven is optimized for cooking bread every day. Either as a "village baker" communal oven type deal, or as a commercial oven. Assuming you are using your oven every day, this design is much more economical from a firewood standpoint. It is already hot every morning when it's time to bring it back up to temp. And you can bake batch after batch, after batch, after batch of bread without having to re-fire. The disadvantage to this oven type is that it takes a long time and a lot of wood to heat all that mass up to usable temps. So for someone who is using their oven once a week, an Allen Scott style is a very bad idea unless they plan on baking in excess of one hundred loaves at a time.

Because many barrel vault ovens are built in the "high-mass" Allen Scott style, some people incorrectly assume that all barrel vaults have tons of mass and take forever to heat up. he oven I built has no cladding and tons of insulation. As such the heating time is the same as any pompeii. As far as the amount of bread I can cook...with no cladding whatsoever I can easily do fifty loaves in a single firing. I cook thirty loaves, in two batches, and close it up, and the next day the oven will be 390 degrees or so.

The other thing I've seen people write is that dome shape of a pompeii somehow reflects radiant energy in a way that eliminates hot spots or colder spots etc. I have found this to be simply false. I have made it a point of comparing hearth temps of two different pompeii style ovens vs my barrel vault style. So far as I can tell, the primary variables affecting hearth temp are insulation, how well heat saturated it is, and (once cooking) how close to the fire you are taking a reading. These variables seem to apply equally to pompeii and barrel vault. There my be some theoretical/laboratory difference in how the dome reflects as compared to the half barrel shape, but I don't think it exists in the real world.

One disadvantage about most barrel vault styles which is real in my opinion, is that in most barrel vaults you have to keep your fire in the back of the oven. With a pompeii, the round shape allows you to keep the fire on the side. That means that when doing pizza it is easy to watch the side of the pizza closes to the fire. This is an adavntage IMO. But it only applies when you are cooking pizza with active flame going in the oven.

In my oven, I took Tscarbourough's (Tom's) advice, and built my barrel vault with an offset door. So the area of the oven to the right of my entry is six inches wider than the area to the left of my entry. This allows me to keep the fire on the right side rather than the back, and therefore allows me to watch the edge of teh pizza closest to the fire.

Personally, I see no downside whatsoever to the barrel vault style. The reason I chose it was because it looked, to my eye, easier to build. It still looks easier to me, but I have never built a pompeii so I honestly can't say.

Bottom line, if your stand is already built and it will fit a barrel vault more effectively, go for it IMO. I would strongly consider doing an offset door however so that you can keep "eyes on" the edge of pizza closest to the fire. This is especially important if doing a smaller oven IMO.

Bill